fair or foul
 

16U High school rules Batter hits a shot down the right field line. Base umpire calls the ball foul and indicates with his arm ball is foul. RF slows his pursuit of the ball and then home plate umpire starts yelling "fair" "fair". Batter makes it all the way to 3rd before the RF can make a play. Needless to say lots of arguing but no ejections.

Final outcome is play stands. Fair ball with runner on third. How should the umpires handle the double call?

Shoot the PU for making a call not his.

No ejections?

JJ

Once called foul, a ball is always foul. Mostly...:eek:

Under FED, it remains a foul ball.

Under NCAA, place the runner where you think he would have ende dup had the ball been called fair initially (I'm assuming here that the ball really was fair.)

What happened when the coach protested the incorrect application of rule?

(I also wonder what happened when UIC learned he has an umpire who would EVER say the word "Fair" out loud)

How about the opposite situation, U3 signals fair ball and it is clearly foul according to the HP partner (who commented as such after we walked off the field), once play is concluded the 3B coach ask U3 to go for help and U3 says he saw it clearly. Coach now goes to HP and asks him to offer his info to his partner but HP says the call will stand since he will not offer unless asked by U3 who is not going to ask for it. Should HP step up and correct the call if he truly feels U3 kicked it or should the crew just live with U3's call? Granted, U3 could have taken the opportunity to go for help but he chose not to. FYI, this was a 16U championship game ending play. Hell, I was U1 and it sure looked foul from my crappy angle across the diamond, lol.

xtremeump
 

I would have been ejected...

In FED rules, it is not allowed to change a foul ball to fair.

xtremeump
 

Never say never, I know it is never said but I had an Umpire that needed to say that's a fair ball in a Varsity ball game. The ball came off the bat over the dish and the F2 hopped up to get it and just threw the ball back to F1. The PU is pointing fair and nothing happened, so he yelled that's a fair ball...

If U3 saw it clearly one way, and PU saw it clearly another way --- who is to say, for sure, that one umpire's judgement is more "correct" than the other umpire's judgement? A call belongs to one umpire - for a reason.

Then I'll stick with never. He should not have yelled a damn thing. Just stand to the side and point fair. Someone will get it eventually.

I agree with never, even with the little kids. Had a game years ago working 10-12yr old recreation. My partner was 16 year old kid, he was PU. bases loaded no outs. Pitch hits the knob of the bat and rolls 6 feet fair toward pitcher. No one moves. My partner correctly steps out from behind the plate and points fair. Cathcher walks over and picks up the ball. Coach yells "The ump wants the ball" so the kid walks to my partner who starts walking away from player trying to hand him the ball. Finally a parent yells "RUN". 2 outs and 2 runs later, I still don't know quite what happenned. But it was fun.

xtremeump
 

HTBTHe said that's a fair ball... What is the punishment for breaking that rule and managing the game against your rule. I agree HTBT, I did not have a problem in that sitch???:p:

So you yell FAIR and everyone stops, because they don't expect to hear anything but FOUL. How do you handle that?:confused:

No punishment whatsoever but, when you want to be a cowboy and do your own thing, eventually you will be able to ride in the sunset all by yourself because, you will have no games and nothing else to do.

Why? He was just doing what Tim McClelland taught us ten years ago was okay. :D

BASEBALL - A Moment in the Spotlight For One 18-Year-Old Fan - NYTimes.com

Of course you wouldn't. There's no "punishment" per se for bad umpiring, at least not on the spot. Eventually assignors learn, and either fix the issue through training or fix it through scheduling. YMMV.

xtremeump
 

I am sorry what is YMMV ? My job is training and knowing the two teams it was a TWC play. May be never happen again. In that sitch I have no problem, the Umpire called me after the game, I thought about it then called the State Interpreter and he had no problem.

xtremeump
 

F1 had the ball BR was in the batters box PU was standing on the third baseline pointing fair and no one is doing anything. You tell me how to handle it ??? I know it never happens, but this play did happen. Please tell me what you would do. I agree do not verbalize FAIR BALLS but there are things that happen that have to be managed.This was a very good Umpire and has no problem getting good assignments. I really have a hard time with the way some people on this forum think that we live in a perfect world and that there is a black and white rule or mechanic for every game. I just talked with the State Interpreter and working 5000 plus games he said he had to say "Ball is in play" does that make anyone happy ??

Your Mileage May Vary

Why, in so many cases, do some say HTBT. Not in this case. If it was as described the BU had the call, he made a FOUL call and under FED rules that can't be changed, even by the PU.

"Coach, you know that in FED rules a FOUL can not be changed to FAIR." Those are the words the PU needs to deliver.

xtremeump
 

Thank You

"It's in play" or "In Play" is what I would say if no one was reacting to a ball despite my pointing fair and otherwise acting as if the ball was in play.

The problem with this situation is, the ball was NOT in play. It was foul, and should STAY foul under FED rules. The PU had no rule based reason to say FAIR. Once a call of foul is made, the ball is DEAD, no longer in play. It cannot be made live again, there is no reincarnation of a dead ball.

If the rule set you are playing under allows that to be corrected, it is NOT corrected by telling everyone, "OK guys, start running!!" You place the runners where , in your judgement, they belong, had the ball not erroneously been called foul.

Bob,
Read post #10. The thread evolved.....

I hate when they do that!! In regards to post #10...point fair, repeatedly, and silently. Runners should be coached to run until they hear "FOUL" or "OUT". It's not my responsibility to tell the players what to do. :cool:

"You tell me how to handle it ??? "

At a Varsity level game? Stand on the third baseline and point fair.

Consider it a lesson learned in what to expect, when you come on this site. It is not a" Perfect World" but, it is the "Real World".

xtremeump
 

Lesson Learned...

Continue pointing Fair. Eventually, somebody's gonna look at me and figure it out.

Yeah, verbalizing, "Hey fellas, that's a Fair Ball," or, "How long do I need to stand here and point until you realize that the ball is Fair," is a viable alternative. But it's certainly against approved umpiring mechanics. If you want to do that, go for it. You'll probably get the reaction you're hoping for. But just because some veteran umpire said that's what he would do, that doesn't mean it's proper.

You stand to the side (not where PU stands for a pitch), point fair, and wait. If the players don't catch on, a coach or parent will eventually.

And this is not TWP at all - yours is not the first time this has happened in the history of baseball. Most of us have probably seen this 50 times, especially when working with the younger or less experienced groups ... but I've seen it once in high school ball. It happens. DO NOT YELL FAIR.

(You called your STATE INTERPRETER over this. Wow. I have no words.)

xtremeump
 

I am sorry, next time I will contact you. I work very closely with my State Interpreter, my ASA UIC and even some wanna be district coordinators . Wow, I did not know just go on the forum where all of the experts are, behind a fake name with an I am correct and you are wrong BS.

In most areas, there's a differemce between "I went to a guy I work with who happens to be a state interpreter" and "I went to a state interpreter".

xtremeump
 

I would like to protest, for mis interpretation of Forum rules. Sorry I will never mess that one up again.

I actually had this play happen last summer in a 1st grade coach pitch game. Bases loaded, 2 outs, bottom of the 6th inning with the home team down 1 run. Coach pitches the ball poorly and it hits the bat, not the player as everyone though, and drops right down on the plate. I point fair and nobody moves. I'm just standing there when the catching assistant (a coach or parent allowed behind the catch to grab passed balls and return them to the opposing coach (pitcher)) tells the catcher to pick up the ball.

Finally after about 3 times being told what to do, and me with my arm getting tired pointing fair for about 15 seconds, the catcher stands up reaches down and picks the ball up off home plate. I signal out, and the home coach isn't happy. I had to take about 10 minutes to explain that the ball hit the bat, not the batter, and it fell onto the plate untouched which made it a fair ball. He then argued I should have said "fair ball". Finally he argued that it couldn't be a force out at the plate since the catchers feet were not touching the plate. The response to that was that when he picked the ball off the plate he gained possession of the ball with the ball touching the plate, therefore he was legally in possession of the ball while the ball was touching the plate, thus since the force was on, it is a force out.

Several parents filed letters of complaint with the rec league, so I had to go to a "stupid waste of time meeting" with my bosses boss over the call. He himself is a former umpire and was the one who called the meeting a "stupid waste of time". Oh well, I got paid for the meeting and got the call correct. Not to mention I got to rest my arm after pointing fair for at least 15 seconds hoping someone would see it.

With all due respect, your State Interpreter is: WRONG! WRONG! WRONG1

All rule sets, both baseball and fast pitch softball, the mechanic is the same: Point and verbalizes FOUL! And point FAIR!

Keeping pointing FAIR until someone gets it. A few years ago I had a USSSA girls' 12U fast pitch tournament game where I was the PU and the batter laid down a bunt that backspinned onto HP and stopped there. I pointed FAIR while the B/R and F2 just stared at the ball. Finally the B/R started runner toward 1B while F2 continued to look at the ball and then look at me while I kept pointing toward FAIR territory. The B/R made it to 1B before F2 finally picked up the ball and wanted to hand it to me.

Now the Defensive HC comes out and started to complain that I didn't tell his F2 that the ball was FAIR; keep in mind that not once did he yell to his F2 to pick up the ball and throw it to F3 at 1B. I told D-HC that I had in deed told his F2 that the ball was FAIR; I kept pointing toward FAIR territory. He proceeded that I was supposed to verbalize the word FAIR to which I told him no I am not. I also reminded him that all batted balls are FAIR unless the Umpires verbally state that they are FOUL. He then told me that his players didn't know that and that I should have taken that into consideration. I told him that no competent Umpire would do what he asked me to do and that players should be taught to play the ball until they hear the Umpires call FOUL, DEAD, or TIME. End of discussion.

Your State Interpreter needs to remember what I have highlighted in red.

MTD, Sr.

xtremeump
 

Thank you very much for letting me down gently, I know what to do and teach now. I am very sorry if I offended anyone but I will say that I let myself down on this one. Thank you for the wake up call. Ump to Live, Live to Ump. Please do not let my wife know, she still thinks I am correct all of the time. :)

An umpire should never call DEAD (ball). Time and Foul are the only words used to kill the ball.

The state clinician (NFHS) in my most recent clinic disagrees with you. So do some rulebooks, actually - caseplays that end with "the umpire shall rule the ball dead." (or "rule a dead ball")

"TIME" is for stopping play for a conference requested by a coach or for killing play prior to a pitch. Or in LL machine pitch, ruling the play over when the ball reaches a circle.
"Dead Ball" is used when something during play (runner interference, bat hits ball a 2nd time, ball goes out of play, etc) kills the play.

Go to a college or pro clinic and they will stop this practice.

At that level, I agree with you. I did state NFHS and LL in my reply (and that applies to most orgs below MLB / MiLB / NCAA)

As in most things, we do what our supervisors want.

Especially if we want to continue to working for them.

What would you do if your supervisor wanted you to yell "Steeerike three yer out!" and jerk your thumb skyward on a swinging 3rd strike? Calling dead ball is equivalent to that.

Well ... if my STATE supervisor said that... I'd do it. Not that he would. Then again, if he said to do it, and everyone did it ... would it still be weird?

If my local guy told us to use a mechanic so bad I had an issue with it, I'd probably mention it to the next guy up the chain (honestly ... someone else would before me, in all likelihood), and it would get fixed.

I've been to both. Guess what? They didn't stop it.

Granted, it was on a very few possible plays, such as a drag bunt, the ball hits B1, & PU is blocked.

And what did they say to say on this play?

+1

MTD, Sr.

The correct verbal mechanic is: "That's interference, Time!"

xtremeump
 

Jim Evans MLB Umpire School in 2008, one of the students said "DEAD BALL" during a drill. All of the Instructors stopped everything put their Caps over there hearts and wanted to see the dead ball. What it taught me is what is the difference between TIME & DEAD BALL ? I always go with TIME now...

"Time" preferred, but no ding for "Dead ball". Similar to "Balk" or "That's a balk."