obstruction or out?

Symon · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 30, 2003, 10:39am

Batter hits ball to right field he rounds first anD heads to second first basemen is off his bag about 5 ft. runner runs into first baseman as he goes to second then he rounds second and heads to 3rd where baserunner is tagged and called out by base umpire. Is the runner really out or is it a "dead ball" or delay of game once contact is made? or is he called out but due to obsturction the umpire gives him the base he feels he would have reached safley. I have look in the rule book and the case book and found that NO runner is at risk after an obsturction call. But a friend says he should be out since he made an attempt for 3rd. I am tring to keep my son an agressive base runner but want to teach him by the right rules please help. If you know the answer please let me know the page # and in what book I can find that rule in. Thanks Symon

JEL · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 30, 2003, 11:03am

I believe it will depend on where F3 was "5 feet off the bag". If in baseline, maybe, if runner made wide turn, maybe not. Thats one that really uses umpires judgment. Teach son to be agressive, but also led by base coaches.

bob jenkins · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 30, 2003, 11:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by Symon
Batter hits ball to right field he rounds first anD heads to second first basemen is off his bag about 5 ft. runner runs into first baseman as he goes to second then he rounds second and heads to 3rd where baserunner is tagged and called out by base umpire. Is the runner really out or is it a "dead ball" or delay of game once contact is made? or is he called out but due to obsturction the umpire gives him the base he feels he would have reached safley. I have look in the rule book and the case book and found that NO runner is at risk after an obsturction call. But a friend says he should be out since he made an attempt for 3rd. I am tring to keep my son an agressive base runner but want to teach him by the right rules please help. If you know the answer please let me know the page # and in what book I can find that rule in. Thanks Symon

Part of the answer depends on "how much" the runner was obstructed and by "how much" he was out.

To take two extremes, if the runner just altered his course a litle, but was out by 45' at third, the out would stand.

If the runner was knocked down, but was out while sliding into third, the obstruction penalty would award third.

You don't say which rule book you are using, and you won't find any *direct* guidance, but the OBR rule is 7.06 -- see especially the sentence, "The umpire shall ... impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction."

DownTownTonyBrown · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 30, 2003, 11:50am

Most rules leave this to umpire judgement (what base would the runner have achieved without the obstruction?)

IN your scenario, it sounds like the runner might well have achieved 3rd... and therefore should be called safe and placed at 3rd with an explanation of the obstruction call.

However, if the umpire feels the runner has advanced beyond the base he would have reasonably reached without the obstruction, the runner is now in jeopardy and can be tagged out.

NFHS Rules 8-3-2.
OBR Rules 7.06

Symon · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 30, 2003, 12:18pm

Everyone agreed the first basemen caused the obstruction my question is does the play end there(DEAD BALL OR DELAY OF GAME)? or is it still alive ball until play ends. The call at 3rd was a close call as he slid into the base.

Thanks, Symon

DownTownTonyBrown · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 30, 2003, 12:21pm

It would only be a dead ball if the runner was being played on right then (someone with the ball tagging him) otherwise it is a delayed deadball and the umpire waits to see the results.

bluezebra · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 30, 2003, 12:39pm

"delay of game"

Dead ball. Five yard penalty.

Bob

pollywolly60 · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 30, 2003, 01:29pm

Hee, Hee

Jim Porter · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 30, 2003, 03:53pm

If you decide to protect the runner to third and he gets tagged out, the proper mechanic is to call, "Time," the moment the tag play ends, then announce the award of third. Don't call him, "Out."

Patrick Szalapski · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 03:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Porter
If you decide to protect the runner to third and he gets tagged out, the proper mechanic is to call, "Time," the moment the tag play ends, then announce the award of third. Don't call him, "Out."

But what if there is a possible/likely subsequent play on the BR, say at 2B? Must we still kill the ball?

P-Sz

Jim Porter · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 04:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski

But what if there is a possible/likely subsequent play on the BR, say at 2B? Must we still kill the ball?

P-Sz

If the Type B obstructed runner is approaching the base to which you are awarding or protecting him, then the ball is dead as soon as the fielder attempts to tag the obstructed runner or forces him into a rundown.

Patrick Szalapski · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 05:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Porter

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski

But what if there is a possible/likely subsequent play on the BR, say at 2B? Must we still kill the ball?

P-Sz

If the Type B obstructed runner is approaching the base to which you are awarding or protecting him, then the ball is dead as soon as the fielder attempts to tag the obstructed runner or forces him into a rundown.

Ah, because then it becomes a Type A obstruction? Is that your rationale?

What about in FED, where all obstruction is type B? Obviously there, we would keep the ball alive...

P-Sz

Jim Porter · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 09:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski
Ah, because then it becomes a Type A obstruction? Is that your rationale?

P-Sz

No. It's because the whole reason we are delaying the dead ball is to allow for the obstructed runner to try to advance, at his own peril, beyond any base he might be awarded because of the obstruction. Once a tag is attempted before the, "protected to," base or he is put into a rundown before the, "protected to," base, he's not going to advance beyond the base at his own peril, so there's no longer a reason to keep play live.

The rule is there, for example, to allow an obstructed batter-runner the chance at trying for the triple when the slight obstruction at first only warranted an award of second. It's not intended to give the defense more opportunities to make plays.

Additionally, if the obstructed runner is played upon like that prior to reaching his, "protected to," base, then the infraction would end up having a direct impact on all subsequent play. That ain't right.

From a practical standpoint, it would be folly to allow subsequent plays on other runners after a tag is made on the obstructed runner like that. You wouldn't even have time to fully explain the status of that play before you have to set up for another play. That would be insane. It seems to me that it's much easier just to call, "Time," when the tag is made, and kill anything else that can happen. That seems much cleaner to me.

Now, the last time I looked, calling, "Time," if a tag or a rundown occurs on an obstructed runner before he reaches his, "protected to," base was also the proper pro mechanic. It might've changed, but I doubt it.