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-   -   Advance on appeal (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/95152-advance-appeal.html)

frozenrope22 Tue May 28, 2013 08:10pm

Advance on appeal
 
Runner on 2nd and 3rd. Fly ball to outfield is caught and runners tag and advance. Play resumes and pitcher executes a proper appeal to third base. However, after indicating the appeal pitcher then wildly throws the ball over third basemans head. Runner on third advances to home and scores on the throwing error.
Defensive coach complains that runner can't advance on appeal play but umpire rules runner can advance at own peril.
Who is correct?

Ump29 Tue May 28, 2013 08:12pm

The umpire is correct.

frozenrope22 Tue May 28, 2013 08:15pm

Thx. Found lots of info on appeals but none about runners advancing on the appeal.

JJ Tue May 28, 2013 10:33pm

With the exception of FED (and their "dead-ball appeal"), the ball is live during appeals. Any runner may advance at his own risk. Fun stuff when it happens...

JJ

rbmartin Wed May 29, 2013 06:26am

What ruleset are we playing under here? How many outs were there before the play began?

bob jenkins Wed May 29, 2013 07:41am

Note that in FED and OBR (but not in NCAA), the defense can still appeal R3 leaving early. If the appeal is upheld then R3's run won't count and if the appeal is the third out, then R2's run won't count either.

umpjim Wed May 29, 2013 09:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 895826)
Note that in FED and OBR (but not in NCAA), the defense can still appeal R3 leaving early. If the appeal is upheld then R3's run won't count and if the appeal is the third out, then R2's run won't count either.

In NCAA is the second appeal of the same runner considered multiple appeals?What if they just retrieved the errant ball and threw it to 3B?

That NCAA rule is confusing to me.

"(3) The defensive team receives only one chance on an appeal. In the case of multiple appeals, if the defense errs during its first appeal attempt or any base runner advances, the defense loses its right to appeal any runner at any base."

How would it apply during live action appeals of leaving early on a fly ball where 2 runners are appealed successively while, let's say R3 advances.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 09:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 895855)
In NCAA is the second appeal of the same runner considered multiple appeals?What if they just retrieved the errant ball and threw it to 3B?

That NCAA rule is confusing to me.

"(3) The defensive team receives only one chance on an appeal. In the case of multiple appeals, if the defense errs during its first appeal attempt or any base runner advances, the defense loses its right to appeal any runner at any base."

How would it apply during live action appeals of leaving early on a fly ball where 2 runners are appealed successively while, let's say R3 advances.

Strange as it may be, they do treat live action appeals differently than relaxed action appeals. The rule you quote refers to relaxed action.

bob jenkins Wed May 29, 2013 10:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 895855)
In NCAA is the second appeal of the same runner considered multiple appeals?What if they just retrieved the errant ball and threw it to 3B?

That NCAA rule is confusing to me.

"(3) The defensive team receives only one chance on an appeal. In the case of multiple appeals, if the defense errs during its first appeal attempt or any base runner advances, the defense loses its right to appeal any runner at any base."

How would it apply during live action appeals of leaving early on a fly ball where 2 runners are appealed successively while, let's say R3 advances.

To "err" in OBR, the ball must be thrown out of play.

To "err" in NCAA, the ball must be overthrown (not necessarily out of play) and a runner must advance.

There's no "err" in FED appeals.

umpjim Wed May 29, 2013 10:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 895860)
To "err" in OBR, the ball must be thrown out of play.

To "err" in NCAA, the ball must be overthrown (not necessarily out of play) and a runner must advance.

There's no "err" in FED appeals.

You got me digging in NCAA.

While the overthrow is an "err", in the OP it seems NCAA would not allow the appeal due to a runner advancing.

"(5) If the defensive team errs on an appeal play and the ball remains in liveball territory, the appeal will be allowed if:
(a) The ball immediately is returned to the base being appealed; and
(b) No runners advance on the misplay. If a runner(s) advances, no appeal
shall be allowed."

Also where do they specify that some of the 8-6-b provisions do not apply during unrelaxed action? It makes sense and I would not think of applying them during unrelaxed action but is it codified somewhere.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 10:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 895870)
You got me digging in NCAA.

While the overthrow is an "err", in the OP it seems NCAA would not allow the run due to a runner advancing.

"(5) If the defensive team errs on an appeal play and the ball remains in liveball territory, the appeal will be allowed if:
(a) The ball immediately is returned to the base being appealed; and
(b) No runners advance on the misplay. If a runner(s) advances, no appeal
shall be allowed."

This is quite confusing. What am I not understanding? It appears to me (still 1 coffee short of minimum for the morning!) you're saying NCAA would allow the appeal and disallow the run, and then you quote the rule that says they would NOT allow the appeal.

bob jenkins Wed May 29, 2013 10:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 895870)
You got me digging in NCAA.

While the overthrow is an "err", in the OP it seems NCAA would not allow the appeal due to a runner advancing.

"(5) If the defensive team errs on an appeal play and the ball remains in liveball territory, the appeal will be allowed if:
(a) The ball immediately is returned to the base being appealed; and
(b) No runners advance on the misplay. If a runner(s) advances, no appeal
shall be allowed."

yes -- that's what I said (or meant to say at least).

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 11:00am

Ah... you changed a rather crucial word there. I get you, and agree with you, now.

umpjim Wed May 29, 2013 11:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 895881)
Ah... you changed a rather crucial word there. I get you, and agree with you, now.

Yes, I meant to type appeal but run came out due to a brainfart.


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