Player comes to the plate with his shirt hanging out. I say tuck it in. He says "Show me the rule." I address the manager and he takes care of things. But the truth is, what is the rule reference? I know he would gain an unfair advantage over the pitcher when it comes to a possible hit batsman but is there anything black & white on this.

don't all players have to be "uniform" and a good represenative of "baseball?"

You could say he is not wearing the uniform properly, as it is to be worn.

you should have said "show your self the bench"

i looked in the OBR section about objectives of the game rules and all it really says is that everyone's uniforms have to be the same with the same trim and same colors, etc. it does say that all players have to conform to the looks of their team mates, but i dont think that means they have to tuck their shirt in....just that they have to wear the same trim and color jerseys.

no one has ever asked me about the ruling, they just do it.

"If you want to see the rule, you can go to the dugout and read the rule book after you're ejected". "Okay, leave it out. But if you're hit by a pitch, in my judgement, unless the ball hit you in the helmet or your legs, your flopping shirt was the place you were hit, and that means you don't get 1B".

As much as I believe 9.01.(c) is misused by many umpires, I would invoke that rule in this instance.

Bob

Called a tourney last weekend, and although it was softball, that other sport, one team's coach thanked my partner for enforcing the "tuck-in policy". Coach said it makes the team look neater, and polished. In our local youth baseball, coaches have learned to make certain players are neat and proper, rarely do we have to make a player dress properly. Now coming to the plate with batting gloves hanging out of pockets is still a problem, don't understand why they don't wear them, it must be a fashion statement, but they tuck em in when asked to though.

Jokers like this are not worth the effort.
Be patient in letting him know it's not a requirement of your job description to show him the rule. It's the rule for this game. If he doesn't like it and wants to continue his objections to your directive, calmly ask the coach for a replacement for the ejected player. The coach likely knows this guy is a troublemaker to begin with. If the coach wants to protest the ejection, then let him. If the protest is upheld, find a different league---they also are jokers.

NOW, I wouldn't be nitpicker about shirts that may come outside the pants while on defense. The possibility of that impacting play is minimal. While I might address that issue with a coach between innings, I wouldn't stop a game for it unless requested by the offense.


Just my opinion,

Freix

you guys are kidding, right
 

OK, lets screw the game momentum up...Had a pard who did just that...PONY 14's, real good travel teams...6 kids he told to tuck shirts in when they came to box, F1 in a groove(lets knock his momentum off). Now, I am talking bout kids who have the front half hanging to his nuts, what is the problem?? Pards answer..."I can't see the belt, so my zone won't be right" DOH, I was working with Homer Simpson!!!!

Hey, if opposing skipper has a problem, I might address it for a batter, F1, YES, I will address it......I got a big ropey booger, who's gonna pick it?????

Re: you guys are kidding, right
 

I agree your partner needs some help.

A much better way to address this is to tell the coach.

Especially if there are several kids with shirts out.

"Coach, tell them to get their shirts in."

Then it will be done.

This is one of the situations where the umpire is in charge of the game, and the players need to follow suit.

If a player doesn't want to conform, adios.

But I agree this can be handled without interuppting the game at all.

Thanks
David

Re: Re: you guys are kidding, right
 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
I agree, to a point. What it sounds like here and in other posts on this topic is that the umpire is enforcing this, not as if the opposing skipper is complaining. Such as the F3 with one foot (or both, for that matter of FED)not in fair territory. Geez, we could nit-pick uniforms all day! Even in my section tourneys, some kids got "barry bonds" type pants, others have the "good ol days look". How far are we as umpires gonna go to enforce "dress code"

Some kids can't tuck in the shirt, (well they can, but the instant they move...) I do not believe this to be my problem as far as calling a game.bottom line.Does it really matter???

Re: Re: Re: you guys are kidding, right
 

I think it does matter. Now I don't put this in the same category as waiting for a manager to complain.

This is my jurisdiction. Chris stated above that if it was the F1 he makes him, because it does affect the game.
If its BR it doesn't affect the game, but if does affect the image of the game. I want a clean game which I can start that by having clean looking players.

Now I know in local leagues its hard, but once we get to tourney play and definitely in HS ages and up they will conform to the standards.

Why do you think MLB has such standards, because it does matter.

Now as far as how they wear the pants, some have em long, some short and how they want to bend their caps etc, that is theirs, but as far as looks, they all need their shirts in and a cap on their head.

When is the last time you've seen a college kid or a MLB player with his shirt draggin or halfway in his belt?

As was stated in the original thread, kids today have no discipline. I say "tuck your shirt in" and he says "why?".
IMO it should be because I said so and I'm the authority in this game.

Wear it how you want at home and in practice, but in a game, you will conform. Maybe I'm just old school, but I'm the adult in charge of this game and the players, coaches, mangaers, bat boys/girls and everyone else will play accordingly.

But as I stated above it can be done discreetly and no one will ever notice.

thanks
David

Re: Re: Re: Re: you guys are kidding, right
 

Well since you asked
 

Chris,

As I stated above this is my style of handling dress codes.
That's the way our state and our association handles it.

As we know (I believe you stated the rule 1.11) there is no mention of shirts to be tucked in. (But the rule does take the time to mention at least 20 other very nitpicky things that must be in compliance.)

<i> IMO the rulemakers simply overlooked mention of the shirt having to be tucked in, similiar to many other obvious omissions in the OBR book. I think that this was just an accepted part of the uniform etc.,</i>

Also there is no mention of shoes having to be worn (except in FED), and there is also no mention in the rules about the pitcher having to tuck his shirt in either.

And we also know that in MLB there is no mention of prohibition against the white t-shirt by the pitcher (if everyone matches him) FED and most other leagues do mention the t-shirts.

The only governing rule I see is that all players must be in uniform, so if F1 has his shirt out, then the rest of the defense has to match his style.

Of course this is all subjective. We are bound by the traditions of baseball and we know that except for FED the traditional baseball uniform has the shirt tucked in. (FED can wear anything they want blue jeans and t-shirt if they want)

That's why we see it tucked in the HS, NCAA and MLB.

Now enforcement is surely up to the umpire.

However, that being said I choose to stick with tradition simply because there are things that can happen during the game with loose uniforms that I would not have to handle if I simply make sure that players are equipped traditionally.

That works for us in the South, now I know you guys out West have some strange ways of doing things so I'll give you the benefit of doubt.

<b>Speaking of uniforms:</b>

I don't do much kids ball anymore I stick with the kids that shave; however, I did 13yr state tourney this week. (reminded me why I don't do these ages anymore)

Its 98 and high humidity so team in white uniforms take them off and play with blue t-shirts.

Kids hits homer and his blue shirt has red # while the rest have white.

Coach for defense protests and committe rules player out and ejected.

We were talking afterwards and I questioned the ruling however, we agreed he was an illegal player, but we made sure he got the HR ball. His team was losing badly anyway at the time, but made me realize coaches will look for anything.

Then the home team protested because the coaches for the defense had no #'s on their uniforms.

Ain't baseball a great game ....

While we had the grown-ups round I reminded them this is what's wrong with our game, (12 adults standing around making threats and etc, instead of the kids playing)
Coach's comment I know this is picky but if it happened to us, they would do the same thing.

Wow,

thanks
David

You have 2 issues here......
First is attempting to address a dress code.
The other is the player's conduct.

As for the dress code, eliminating the shirt hanging out at the plate is preventative officiating. A pitched ball may hit that shirt where it otherwise may not have if it was tucked in. Addressing the issue eliminates the problem. While this may seem nitpickin' to some, it's not to others. I don't allow players to wear their hats backwards during the game. I'd address it if they wore their shirts or pants backwards, so why not address it if they wear their hats backwards? Their jocks are up to them--I don't ask about those............

The other issue, however, is the remark to "Show me the rule" when addressing something as simplistic as maintaining a dress code. That player is starting a battle he is unlikely to win relative to conduct within the game. That response is different than a question of "Is there a rule?". While both responses deserve an answer, little time needs to be spent on this issue. The question and answer are as simplistic as the request and response should have been. I don't expect to spend any significant time or effort arguing with a player or coach who cannot understand this request and need, and who wish to put up a barrier against something as simplistic as tucking in a shirt. They will be told that players at the plate need it tucked in to avoid being hit, and if they can't handle that they won't be at the plate. I'll do what's necessary to assure that, as they'll soon learn if they wish to maintain the barrier.


Freix

In over 30 yr. I have had several hundred "tuck your shirt in" at the plate. Never had a problem.
This week state tourney 14 yrs. old. First base coach had his hat backward. I went to the manager and ask him to address it to the coach. He said " I know it looks bad but there is nothing I can do". I approahed the coach and ask very nice to turn it around. He says "there is no rule to make me". Bad move hoss. I explained 9.1.c. He said " I will just take it off". Tourney rules require all coaches to wear a hat. I am about to run him when 2 dads come to the fence,( both very very big guys) and inform the coach " turn your hat around or deal with us". Not in those exact words. Turned the hat around and no more problems. The next day coach was not with the team . Team won the tourney. Both dads caught me in the parking lot afterwards and thanked me. They said he had been doing this all season and no unpire had ever said anything.
Times like this makes me think that youth ball still has few class folks.

i would have said this is part of 1.11.a.3 even though he is a coach and not a player...hes wearing a uniform, which most coaches in my 14, 15, and 16 leagues dont do. is it possible to use this rule when talking to coaches even thought the rule says the words "player" and "teammates" and no mention of coaches? he has to conform to that of his team mates but if he is a coach can we slap him in the player category for dress code because he is wearing a uniform?

if the coach agrees with this rule (1.11.a.3), but then tells all his kids to go out the next inning and have all of them with their hats backwards including the coaches, i would bring in 9.1.c and say they are rediculous and they must all turn them around and put them under 1.11.a.3 and make them wear it forwards.

i'd try and use 9.1.c as few times in my life as possible, theres better routes to take first.

Thanks Brian. I also try no to use 9.1.c often. In this case if you quote 1.11 (3) you will get the old " I am not a player
". Just as easy to 9.1.c and get it over with.
I went back later to my Brinkman-Froemming Umpire Development Program book ( I went to the school in 1994).
Pg. # 123, A. Hats.
A hat is not required unless the person is on defense or is coaching a base; when worn, it must be worn properly( hats are not reversible) and a hat must be identical for all teams personnel.
You are correct it is covered by rule interpertation by MLB.
Explain to a 14 and under coach MLB rule interpertation and you get the old deer in the headlight look. Just as easy to 9.1.c it , they can understand "it's so because I say it's so".
As I stated before I have used it very few times, however when I do I have no more problems. I use it only on real #ick heads
when I do not wish to to discuss the situation any longer.
I am refered to as the "60s ump". Peace and love.
Thats my call on a 2 and 2 count.

My understanding has always been that all players must be dressed uniformly. Thus one player with an untucked shirt is a problem, but the whole team could choose to wear their uniform over their pants.

The Chicago White Sox wore their shirts untucked back in the 70s or 80s? It looked terrible, but it was allowed.

Dressing The Part
 

I cast one vote for players wearing their shirts tucked in and their hats facing forward. I know that this might seem like a picky thing to some but I think it is about respect for the umpire, respect for your team, respect for you, but above all respect for the game. Somewhere when you first put on a pair of shin guards to call balls and strikes there was hopefully someone with experience who told you to dress like an umpire, a professional. I think the same rules apply to players. I think corrective action when needed has to happen within the flow of the game, a 3-2 count on the clean-up hitter with the bases loaded may not be the best time to let F-1 know his tails are hanging out but bases empty and a fly ball to the OF may be a nice moment in time. Jim / NYC

Why should getting a shirt tucked in slow down a game? If it's important to you as an umpire, address it in your pregame. Then if you see an on- deck batter with shirt out, have them take care of it while they are on-deck.

I don't think it is necessary for umpires to discuss proper attire before the game except when you have a league rule prohibiting jewelry in which case you may want to remind coaches to have players remove the stuff. As far as pitchers -- oftentimes you can have a player with a shirt one-size too small and every inning or two the shirt comes out in the back. I think you have to be judicious about handling that situation. A lull in the action works better than a critical game situation.

Just re-read this thread and realized the problem being addressed was F1(pitcher) and not batter. I agree that general dress codes shouldn't have to be covered in pregame. I guess I haven't had this problem occur in a game yet - only with the batters. I can't envision myself stopping a pitcher in the middle of a batter's at-bat to have him tuck in his shirt, but can see doing it at a time when play has stopped. Different umpires feel more strongly about some rules that are considered "nit-picky" by other umpires. I say, if you want something stressed that doesn't normally get stressed, you might be safe to cover it in your pregame. Can save you some hassle later in the game.

Close to agreement
 

I agree that some umpires are indeed "nitpickers" and I fear bringing the dress code of the day up in a pre-game might tend to heighten teams' impressions that the day's umpire is such a stickler for details. BUT, besides overall appearance "managing" that odd looking shirt prevents the other team from causing grief by raising the issue especially at a key moment in the game. I sure don't want to say sloppy is OK nor do I want the opposing manager to assume umpires' responsibilities. Jim / NYC

I have not had a problem really but I have them tuck in shirts that are hanging when they are at bat because it does give them an unfair advantage in the HBP department. Then it also gives the neat appearance.

My only arguement against the tucked in shirts (if I thought it was a no biggy)is as I recall back in the 80's (maybe late 70's), didn't the Chicago White Sox wear uniforms where the shirts hung out??? Or were they just so bad looking that it looked like they did???

What in the world are you guys discussing?
 

This isn't a vote.

Yes, Uniforms are meant to be worn properly - and that means shirt-tails in and hats with the bill in front. Coaches too.

That's really not the issue of a batter with his shirt-tails hanging between him and the plate/pitch.

For anyone that has knowledge of game management skills you know that you have much better luck ASKING for compliance rather than TELLING/ORDERING compliance.

ASK the player to tuck his shirt in. And do it in a method and with a tone of voice that inspires him to comply. Take the attitude of Hey, you probably didn't even know your shirt was out but "Will you tuck your shirt in for me?" If necessary say the first part of that to yourself and then vocalize the question part to the player.

Now for the real reason that we want batter's shirts tucked-in (I would never ask any other player - besides a pitcher, to tuck their shirt in. It's not a booger I want to pick and it has absolutely no effect on the game if the right fielder and the shortstop have their shirt-tails out.)....

The batter needs to have his shirt tucked in so he does not get UNWARRANTEDLY Hit By the Pitch - batter lift his arms and a pitch that's 8 inches aways from his body, hits his shirt. Coaches teach this kind of crap. It's your responsibility to stop it before it happens. (Rules: everyone plays within the same latitude of the rules. And you as an umpire establish that latitude. Do you want EVERONE to get HBP with a ball that is 8 inches away from the batter?)

The pitcher needs to have his shirt tucked-in so the batter can distiguish the ball location as soon as possible during the delivery. It is distracting for a batter to have a shirt tail flapping around with the pitcher's motion and with the wind and then have the ball suddenly appear from behind that distraction.

Again, ask the pitcher to tuck-in his shirt for you. Present your request as non-imperative (even though it is imperative/required) and make it as personal favor for you.

For a player to resist a personal, reasonable request is probably a bigger effrontery to the umpire than saying "show me the rule."

Just my opinion, Tony :)

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Jul 31st, 2003 at 04:10 PM]

It's really much simpler than what everyone is making it.

On offense, a HBP is defined as a pitch striking the person or clothing. Obviously, a batter with an untucked shirt has a tremendous advantage over the defense. Same goes for an "untucked" pocket on his pants.

On Defense, all participants must be dresssed alike. If they ALL choose to look like "grunges", they're showing no respect for the sport . . . and attempting to show up their opponents in an "unsportsmanlike conduct".

Where's the "brain surgery" and "rocket science" in the solution?

At the "Munchkin" level, let 'em protest your decision! Show me a league anywhere in the world that allows its players to dress as they darn well please. (The "naked baseball league; maybe.)
Jerry

WHAT are we discussing
 

I think it is kind of funny that each poster seems to find an issue in the previous post. I don't sense there is that much disagreement here. Some might bring up the issue at a pre-game. I usually would not. Of course if they look like grunges before we even get started then a comment may be most appropriate. Some umpires may be bit tougher than others and might tell the on-deck batter or better yet Ask him to adjust his tails. I think that is better than waiting till he gets to the plate. Even saves time. No one seems too concerned with the fielders (except hats turned backwards) but will ask the pitcher to tuck in his shirt. I just would try to avoid upsetting the rhythm of the game. The way the whole thread started was

I think we have all encountered players if not teams that choose to be argumentative but we can accomplish more with honey than vinegar so I recommend we follow the advise of an earlier poster who suggested we just ask the player. In closing and perhaps ending the discussion I have never had a player ask what rule covers this and most of the players on fields have looked at least as good as my partner. Note though that I have at times umpired with scarlet ball bags from +POS. Jim/NYC