Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 885715)

Some disagreements on here, or debates, are the result of people with opposing understandings of something trying to talk through the situation and resolve it, in order to make us better umpires.

Other debates or debaters come from people just saying whatever they can to "win" the argument. This sort of thing serves no purpose, and doesn't make anyone better.

Your response, here, is the latter. Rich was referring to THIS scenario. Your "rebuttal" (using the term incredibly loosely) has nothing at all to do with this scenario (unless, I guess, you're allowing the catcher to set up in fair territory, or are imagining a scenario where the batter tosses the bat to hit a pitch out... hits it... and somehow defying physics the bat propels itself into fair territory to interfere with someone trying to field that hit.)

Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 885723)

Not quite sure how the location of where the bat ends up, has anything to do with the determination of whether a bat was "carelessly" thrown or not. Why are we insistent on saying that things that are not specifically covered by the Rules, are therefore wrong or illegal. As officials we need to stick to enforcement of the rules as they exist and are interpreted. Making it up, just causes problems.

Eg: I am doing a game the other day and R3 is coming home and does not slide. The catcher is on 1B side of plate and receives a low throw from right side of field. Reaches over and tags R3 around the ankle, causing him to flip/trip over the catcher. Two players, playing within the rules and just not executing the plays normal with good baseball techniques. My partner ejects R3 for malicious contact. The coaches question the call. I am not asked to get involved and don't.

It is obvious that it looked malicious to my partner and he made the call but, I don't believe his interpretation of the rules were consistent with "malicious contact" and therefore because something unusual happened, he felt he had to react with a ruling, that I believe was incorrect.

Sometimes you just have to umpire.

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 885735)

Your partner was wrong. That has little bearing on what were are talking about here as far as I can tell.

Fed 3-3-1c says "A . . . player . . . shall not carelessly throw a bat." "Penalty: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected . . ."

So this is covered by the rules. If you're arguing that a player who, in an attempt to hit the ball, throws the bat all the way to the fence has thrown the bat in a careful manner, then we disagree on what is careless.

We are not given a definition for carelessly throwing the bat, so if you judge that not to be careless, you can't technically be wrong, but I'd question your judgement in the matter.

Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 885764)

The point of my example was not to point out whether my partner was wrong or not, because in his mind and interpretations he wasn't. But, had his understanding of the "Malicious" interpretation been better understood, he most likely would have made the correct call.

Which takes us back to one interpreting "carelessly throwing the bat".

I have seen a bat being thrown at a pitch and have never been able to differentiate if the batter lunged and then the bat slipped from his hands or if he purposely was throwing the bat. Which in my mind does not fit the rule you cited.

Originally Posted by Tim C (Post 885755)

As a co-author of the NFHS original Malicious Contact rule there are only two reasons for MC to be called:

1) Was the force of collision made to injure another player and,

2) Was the force of the collision made to detach the ball from the defenders legal grasp?

Not that hard.

T

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 885769)

You appear to be wrongly equating carelessly with unintentionally. You can be intentional and careless as well as unintentional and careless.

When you release the bat either intentionally or unintentionally in such a way that it poses a hazard to the safety of others, you have carelessly thrown the bat. You have thrown the bat without care to the safety of others.

Think of it this way: if the batter throws the bat into your shins on his follow through is it better or worse if he did it intentionally? My guess is you are going to warn the team for carelessly throwing the bat if it is unintentional but eject without warning if it was intentional.

Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 885792)

no, in just about everycase of the bat coming back to my shins it has been because some inexperienced player has never been properly shown how to drop the bat after after hitting the ball. I am not giving warnings and ejections. I will call time, bring out the coach and the player and hopefully correct the situation right there. I very seldom work those level games anymore though.

Lets just say that i believe your judgement of "carelessly" is different than everyone else's and leave it that we disagree. I have seen bats end up in the stands, almost at first and it really has never entered my mind that it was carelessly.

Have a good day!

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 885798)

fify

Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 885792)

No, in just about everycase of the bat coming back to my shins it has been because some inexperienced player has never been properly shown how to drop the bat after after hitting the ball. I am not giving warnings and ejections. I will call time, bring out the coach and the player and hopefully correct the situation right there. I very seldom work those level games anymore though.

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 885801)

You honestly don't think a batter has been careless with his bat when it ends up in the stands? I'll make sure I'm behind the backstop if I ever take in one of your games.

Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 885815)

Ever wonder why the pros have bats go flying as often as they do?

If you death-grip a bat you will significantly hinder your ability to hit.

Sometimes they slip out of a batter's hands. That doesn't make it careless.

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 885820)

Admittedly, it's been years since I've had my season tickets, but I don't recall the pros having bats go flying on any basis that could be considered often.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 885822)

Fine ... but when it does happen, do you think those umpires immediately issue a warning to the batter?