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LeeBallanfant Mon Mar 11, 2013 08:27pm

Passed Runner
 
ML Rules

Bases loaded, one out. Batter hits soft liner to RF who traps ball, R3 easily scores, but R2 thinking ball was caught retreats to his original bases and R1 confused stops a few feet short of 2B and starts to go back to 1B. Defence now throws to 3B for the force out. After force out at 3B, BR passes the retreating R1 between 1B and 2B and is called out.
There is a throw made to 2B for the force there, but it is after BR has been called out for the third out.

Does the run count?

yawetag Mon Mar 11, 2013 09:10pm

Once BR is called out, the force is removed. Therefore, the throw to 2B wouldn't be a force out anyway. Not that it matters, the passing would be the third out.

Run scores.

Rich Ives Mon Mar 11, 2013 09:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 884285)
ML Rules

Bases loaded, one out. Batter hits soft liner to RF who traps ball, R3 easily scores, but R2 thinking ball was caught retreats to his original bases and R1 confused stops a few feet short of 2B and starts to go back to 1B. Defence now throws to 3B for the force out. After force out at 3B, BR passes the retreating R1 between 1B and 2B and is called out.
There is a throw made to 2B for the force there, but it is after BR has been called out for the third out.

Does the run count?

The out on the B-R removed the force on R1 so there is now no force at 2B.

The out on the B-R was the third out.

There is no possible 4th out force play appeal now because the force was removed.

The run counts.

LeeBallanfant Mon Mar 11, 2013 09:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 884298)
The out on the B-R removed the force on R1 so there is now no force at 2B.

The out on the B-R was the third out.

There is no possible 4th out force play appeal now because the force was removed.

The run counts.

This is what I thought, but I cannot reconcile it to 7:08 e

He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been
forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. However, if a
following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner
must be tagged to be put out.


Technically the batter was not out on a force play.

yawetag Mon Mar 11, 2013 09:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 884303)
This is what I thought, but I cannot reconcile it to 7:08 e

He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been
forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. However, if a
following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner
must be tagged to be put out.


Technically the batter was not out on a force play.

Nope, but your quoted rule has nothing to do with your original situation.

Look at it in this situation: R1. Fly ball to R9, who traps it. BR touches first and turns toward second; R1 isn't sure if the ball is caught and stops halfway between 1B and 2B. F9 throws to F3, who tags BR off the base.

At this point, is the force still in effect? No, because the previous runner (the BR here) being put out removed the force.

LeeBallanfant Mon Mar 11, 2013 09:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by yawetag (Post 884306)
Nope, but your quoted rule has nothing to do with your original situation.

Look at it in this situation: R1. Fly ball to R9, who traps it. BR touches first and turns toward second; R1 isn't sure if the ball is caught and stops halfway between 1B and 2B. F9 throws to F3, who tags BR off the base.

At this point, is the force still in effect? No, because the previous runner (the BR here) being put out removed the force.

Thanks, I just find it strange that a bad base running play would aid the offense.

CT1 Tue Mar 12, 2013 05:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 884308)
Thanks, I just find it strange that a bad base running play would aid the offense.

How does this "aid the offense"? If the ball clearly drops, they would have R1 + R3, a run scored, and two outs. If the ball were clearly caught, they would have R1 + R2, a run scored, and two outs.

As is, they still get the run, but now there are three outs.

LeeBallanfant Tue Mar 12, 2013 08:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 884347)
How does this "aid the offense"? If the ball clearly drops, they would have R1 + R3, a run scored, and two outs. If the ball were clearly caught, they would have R1 + R2, a run scored, and two outs.

As is, they still get the run, but now there are three outs.


If they get the forces at both 3B and 2B no runs would have scored.

maven Tue Mar 12, 2013 08:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 884372)
If they get the forces at both 3B and 2B no runs would have scored.

The batter hit a soft liner to F9. How does the defense get forces at 3B and 2B on a base hit to the outfield?

MD Longhorn Tue Mar 12, 2013 08:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 884308)
Thanks, I just find it strange that a bad base running play would aid the offense.

Think of it this way... once BR is out, R1 is free to return to first base safely.

MD Longhorn Tue Mar 12, 2013 08:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven (Post 884374)
The batter hit a soft liner to F9. How does the defense get forces at 3B and 2B on a base hit to the outfield?

If they get forces at 3B and 2B (or either, really) - it's not a base hit.

Nolan Ryan had a no-hitter saved once by a "soft liner" to right field. R1 didn't know if it would be caught and hesitated. When it wasn't caught, F9 threw to second base, forcing R1. No hit.

MD Longhorn Tue Mar 12, 2013 08:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 884347)
How does this "aid the offense"? If the ball clearly drops, they would have R1 + R3, a run scored, and two outs. If the ball were clearly caught, they would have R1 + R2, a run scored, and two outs.

As is, they still get the run, but now there are three outs.

The baserunning mistake he's referring to is BR passing R1.

LeeBallanfant Tue Mar 12, 2013 09:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven (Post 884374)
The batter hit a soft liner to F9. How does the defense get forces at 3B and 2B on a base hit to the outfield?

See bottom of 2nd in this game. August 21, 1998 Toronto Blue Jays at Anaheim Angels Play by Play and Box Score - Baseball-Reference.com

Rich Ives Tue Mar 12, 2013 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 884303)
This is what I thought, but I cannot reconcile it to 7:08 e

He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been
forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. However, if a
following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner
must be tagged to be put out.


Technically the batter was not out on a force play.

It's like this: The following runner was put out while a force play was in effect. There is now no force play.

And if you want to get really technical the batter can never be put out on a force play. The "normal" play on the batter at 1B while seemingly a force, is not a force because the batter does the forcing, he isn't himself forced. See 2.00 Force Play. That's why there are separate exceptions in 4.09(a ).

CT1 Tue Mar 12, 2013 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 884381)
The baserunning mistake he's referring to is BR passing R1.

I understood that.


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