NCAA question
 

NCAA test question:

With two outs and the bases loaded, B7 hits a fly ball that is caught by the right fielder. The pitcher, in his excitement, runs toward his team's dugout on the first base side. The pitcher and the batter-runner collide. The batter-runner touches first base before the throw from the right fielder is caught by F3.

Questions that question begets:

Why is the right fielder making a throw to F3? Why is F3 even paying attention to F9 instead of heading to the dugout? Why can't NCAA test writers come up with scenarios that resemble reality when testing its umpires on a rule?

Perhaps both teams thought there were only 4 outs.

All you need is Harvey Korman saying: "But why am I asking you?"

Do you actually believe NCAA players are all that smart, not to do something like this. I don't.

Maybe the question should have been, Do you know the difference between something and nothing?

A better question would have F9 drop the fly ball, & his throw to F3 beat B1.

I don't get it. I haven't read through my test yet but this looks more like a statement than a question.

It's a play. there are 4 rulings that follow. Choose the best one.

No doubt that was the original scenario, and then a committee got hold of it. ;)

This question is in the preseason guide they gave out at the NCAA meetings. It is on the Arbiter too. I agree it's not a very good question.

What were the 4 options?

The video question with R2 getting picked off at 2nd and getting in a rundown is a real mess. F5 drops the ball while trying to tag R2 who probably doesn't leave the basepath as he avoids the potential tag. I would have nothing, but that isn't really one of the options.

I thought that one was easy (all of the above was my answer). The runner may have been out of the baseline but the fielder never had possession of the ball.

Sorry dash. I hit the wrong button. I didn't change anything in your post.

But if there's no ball, you don't have a baseline violation. So that makes "B" incorrect...I think it's b anyway.

This question has some odd choices, so you might be right.

I think "A" is the best answer of the four options.

I think if you have "nothing" then IMO, A has to be your choice.

That being said, I'm not claiming to be the expert.

A says the runner must be tagged,
B says the runner is out of the baseline but it only applies if the fielder has the ball and is making a tag attempt
C says pretty much the same thing as B.
D is all of the above

It has to be D.

For the purpose of discussion, unless you don't judge him to be out of his base path. Then it can't be B or C, so then it's not D, so it has to be A.

"For the being 'out of the baseline principle' to apply, the fielder must have secured the ball and be attempting a tag."

Why isn't this correct?

I'm not saying I disagree w/ "C" as a statement. But I don't think C applies to this question.

The rule states: (which I'm certain you know),

"In running to any base, while trying to avoid being tagged out, the runner runs more than three feet left or right from a direct line between the base and the runner's location at the time a play is being made"

If you answer "C" I can live with that, but the answer can't be D. (Again, I'm not saying I'm right. I appreciate the discussion)

I think the runner clearly runs more than 3' from his path. IF F5 had caught the ball, we'd have an out.

So, I'm answering "D".

I wish everyone could see the video. I really don't think he runs more than three feet from the tag when the potential tag is attempted. That may not be what they're trying to convey from the question though.

Three feet is a short distance: generally an arm's length. If the fielder has to move at all to reach him, then he "left the baseline."

If you don't think the runner was out of the "baseline," then the correct answers would be A and C.

Only if the runner is moving around the fielder. Often the runner is moving away from the fielder (partly toward a base, partly away from the fielder), and what appears to be more than 3 feet is not actually that far. Especially if the runner is already moving away before the tag attempt starts.

I would have to watch the video again, but I think the runner was moving around F5 in this clip before the ball got to him.

That's exactly what trips up the standard parent/fan - they see a player running "around" a fielder and assume they MUST be 3 feet outside the baseline (nevermind that it's the basepath that matters), and don't realize the path is made when the tag starts, not when the runner begins deviating.

This is where I'm confused..."A" says, "This runner must be tagged to be out in this situation" -- but if we judge the runner to be more than 3' out of his baseline, he doesn't need to be tagged (of course, as long as the fielder has the ball) -- he's out for being more than 3' from his path...correct?

Frankly, I can't tell the difference b/t "B" and "C" -- so I haven't a clue what to put!! :)

"the runner must be tagged" means "the baseline issue doesn't apply because the fielder doesn't have the ball". imo, all three answers are just different ways of saying the same thing, so D is correct.

No. In the video, the fielder does not have the ball, so the runner can't be called out for being out of the baseline. Therefore, he must be tagged to be put out.

I don't think we have a baseline violation, which is why I'm going with "A"

I will see if I can get the video posted.

Right now, I like my "A" answer, but I have to say that I could be convinced to change my mind if we think we have a baseline infraction.

I'm impressed. There is no way I could post that video on here.

When I watch it again, I think that I can lean toward a possible baseline infraction IF all guidelines are met, which they aren't in the video, but the question creates a hypothetical.

When the fielder extends his arm completely he still missed the runner so much that there's considerable daylight between the end of the fielder's glove and the runner. So I think we can agree that there is a gap that is equal to or greater than three feet.

By the choices given, if we have a baseline violation, a tag is not required so you can't answer "D" if you have a baseline violation.

The only proper answer if you think there is a baseline violation in this instance would be "C"

It would have been a baseline infraction had the fielder held on to the ball. That describes the situation perfectly, which is what the question asks for, and which is why B is also correct. C is a correct statement by itself. A is correct because the fielder didn't hold on to the ball.

So the better of the two answers is probably "B" since it relates to the video.

I can appreciate that argument. B sums up the video better than the other 2 answers. I still think the NCAA is looking for D though.

Say the fielder catches the ball cleanly... the tag begins after that catch and as soon as he starts moving the glove in the direction of the runner. At that instant, the player has already veered considerably to the left (from the camera's perspective). 3 feet from the fielder is not the standard. 3 feet out of HIS basepath that is established the moment a tag attempt begins.

On that standard, this runner is not even remotely close to being 3 feet out of the basepath.

(Also note - there some codes where the fielder here has obstructed, as the runner had to veer when he didn't have the ball)

The NCAA thinks he is.

Thanks Bob & Dash -- I see what you're saying...in A, it says, "in this situation", -- ths situation where F6 dropped the ball...

But if you have a baseline infraction, you don't need a tag, so if you have a baseline infraction (B), you can't answer A, b/c a tag isn't necessary, merely a tag attempt is necessary.

I think the fielder is considered to be in the act of fielding the ball which is why one could eliminate obstruction. I also saw it that way at first that at the time of the invalid tag attempt, R2 had already passed the fielder. But the answer possibilities just don't give us those options.

You must consider each answer independently.

Okay, but if you have a baseline infraction, a tag is not necessary to get an out. I wish is said "tag attempt."

Stop right there. You don't have a baseline infraction in the video because the fielder dropped the ball. There was no tag attempt.

What do you mean by that? Is there some note somewhere I've not seen that changes the time at which we are to set the baseline in a situation like this?

Okay dash, w/ that approach I can see where "D" could be an answer. Clear as mud. Perfect.

No, I'm just going by the possible answers to this question.

Ah. Got it.

If I have my facts straight, I was told at a FED meeting control of the ball really meant everything. I believe I was referring to the fielder with the ball in his throwing hand, and making an attempt to tag a runner with his glove hand. More than a reach on a tag attempt regardless of the location/possesion of the ball, runner out for leaving base path. Might be something you want to discuss in a future meeting.

So is anybody on here opposed to answering "D" on this question?

Nope - I was a little slow, but after this discussion, I believe that's the right answer. I missed 2 - I have no idea which ones - but I don't think this was one of them...

D - All of the above, is not a correct answer.

Based on ....

(Not doubting you; just seeking clarification)

You know, I have no problem taking rules tests and discussing questions all day. But when it has taken almost four pages and we still can't figure it out and have differing opinions, do you think the question (Not just that one) is written poorly? I am not as rules-savvy as some people, but I kind of pride myself on staying sharp on the rules, but it seems like the hardest part of this test is just trying to decode the hidden meaning in the questions. I don't feel like that makes anyone a better umpire.

Because A says he must be tagged. Another answer says, paraphrasing, that if the fielder had possession of the ball during the tag attempt the runner would be guilty of going outside of his 3` running lane. You can't have both of these answers as correct.

You can if you consider them independently.

Since the fielder was in the act of fielding the throw but didn't catch it, he couldn't make a tag attempt so you can't call obstruction on the fielder nore can you call the runner for being out of the basepath. I'm going to get out my flipping coin on this answer...

JJ

Yes but an all of the above answer means all other answers are correct inclusively. This cannot be the case.

I still like "A" or "C" depending on if you judge a baseline violation or not.

I think I'm going to go with the "best" answer, not necessarily keep searching for the "correct" answer.

That's a mighty big word you're using there, pardner. Sounds like that is 99.9% of the law. It would be better if the runner ran through the fielder, and got an obstruction call (if that would apply in the rundown).

A - don't get what you're trying to get at.
B - you cannot get OBS if the runner was to run the fielder over since the fielder was in the act of fielding a thrown ball.

After finally watching the video several times and having the answers right in front of me, I'm going with "D".
I think the NCAA is trying to see if we'll get hung up on the "out of the baseline" bit, but since the fielder doesn't have the ball we can't call that. That leaves "he must be tagged" as the only way the defense can get him out. That makes "D" correct for me. FWIW.

JJ

A~IF the fielder has possession. From what I've gathered over the years, possession is 9/10ths of the law. The ball doesn't even have to be held in the glove if they attempt a tag with the glove, the runner has gone 3 ft. outside his running lane. They just have to have possession of the ball. Fielder touches runner with glove, you have a missed tag attempt. You run 3 ft. away on tag attempt with no in glove, you're out of the base path.

B~Most times it is just better to run at the fielder. You're in the line of the throw, and might get an obstruction call. That's why I wrote (if that would apply in the rundown). Why I put that part in parentheses.

Here is the NCAA's answer to this question (I had "C" and it was wrong. "D" is the correct answer). Nice going Dash, Bob, and the others who saw it as "D".

Question #4
Please select the best answer below that describes this situation.

a. This runner must be tagged to be out in this situation.

b. This runner is out of the baseline (more than three-feet around the fielder); therefore, is out if the fielder has caught the relay throw. The fielder must have possession of the relay throw and be preparing to tag a runner for the “being out of the baseline” provision to apply.

c. For the being “out of the baseline principle” to apply, the fielder must have secured the ball and be attempting a tag.

d. All of the above answers are correct.

Yep, I agree. Nice job with that question fellas. I appreciate the guidance.

Here's another one from the test (I have omitted 2 answers that are obviously wrong):

R2, no outs, 1-2 count. The umpire discovers the pitcher has applied a foreign substance to the ball prior to the 1-2 pitch.

a) The pitcher is ejected immediately.

b) Upon discovering that the pitcher has applied a foreign substance to the ball, the plate umpire must not allow the pitcher to pitch. A warning is issued immediately.

Initially, I thought the answer should be b) because the rule calls for a one-time warning, but then I went to the Preseason Guide (where a bunch of the questions always come from). In the guide, there is a section entitled "Standards for Removal from the Game" which contains the following: "In addition, there are other situations that result in immediate ejections, such as a pitcher in possession of a foreign substance..."

So I answered a) and got it wrong. That just ain't fair.

I write the written test for my local (non-school) association. Here is one of the questions. Every once in a while, I throw in a ridiculous answer designed to give the test taker a chuckle and allow him to cross-off one of the possible answers. Nevertheless, I guarantee you someone will answer d.

Q: Slow ground ball to F5. It's going to be a whacker at 1st. The B/R completely misses 1st base. He is directly over the base when F3 (touching the base) catches F5's throw.


a. The B/R is out. No appeal is necessary.

b. The BU should make no call and wait for an appeal.

c. The BU should call the B/R safe but be prepared to call him out upon proper appeal.

d. The BU should scream "Safe - He's off the bag!" and sell the call by sweeping his arms away from the base.

Regarding the pitcher being discovered using a foreign substance, I too had the same answer you did: "The pitcher is ejected immediately" and I took my cue from the Study Guide 2013-2014. I believe I've seen MLB reports where an F1 (for example, Gaylord Perry) being ejected immediately upon discovery of a foreign substance on his hand or body/clothing. (As a side note, there were a few erroneous and conflicting (with NCAA) rulings/explanations in that guide. It actually had BESR as the legally required marking on the bat - pp. 42 & 43)!

They are either careless, strongly averse to anyone scoring 100, or both.

Here's an NCAA question I got wrong and don't really understand why. I chose "C", but the answer given by the NCAA was "A". Does the NCAA think this is a batting out-of-order infraction. I took it as an illegal substitution. Even the NCAA justification seems to indicate that.

Question:

Larry is the DH for the pitcher. In the fourth inning, the coach decides to have the pitcher bat for himself. In the sixth inning, the coach decides to have Larry bat for the pitcher again. Before a pitch is thrown to Larry, the defense appeals.

a. Since the defense appealed before a pitch was thrown, the offensive team may replace Larry without penalty.

b. Once Larry is removed from the DH's role, he may subsequently return to the game but only as a pitcher.

c. Larry is called out and disqualified from the game.

d. Larry is ejected but is not called out. His substitute will assume Larry's position at the plate.

Explanation: 5-5j (1) & (3)
j. Should a withdrawn (disqualified) player re-enter the game:
(1) If on offense, whether as a batter or a runner, upon discovery by the
opposing team or an umpire, the player immediately shall be declared out
and disqualified from the game. If the player should score a run before the
discovery, an appeal must be made to the umpire-in-chief before the first
pitch to the next batter of either team. This appeal would invalidate the
action of the ineligible player;
(3) Any player for whom a withdrawn player substitutes may not re-enter the
game

So - did anyone ever figure out the purpose of the original question?

Hint: Obstruction before the runner reached first on a caught fly ball. :D

I answered C as well. This has to be a brain fart/typo. They have the correct rule cite.

I think we knew that. The problem was the last sentence didn't make any sense (in the real world). If it was just ignored, then the answer to the OP (ignore the OBS on a caught fly) was obvious.

I didn't have that question so I don't know what the possible answers were. I would hope that one of the answers is: "The umpire shall call the obstruction when it happens, allow the play to continue, and call the batter out on the catch by F9."

And maybe the lurkers would like to see the answer.

The test writer (or a lawyer) could argue that, "The umpire discovers the pitcher has applied a foreign substance to the ball" and "pitcher in possession of a foreign substance", are not the same thing. That would be a chicken-**** reasoning, IMO. So the premise of the question is flawed (Shocking). How could an "umpire discovers the pitcher has applied a foreign substance to the ball" without the evidence to prove it (F2 might have applied the foreign substance).

I hate these wrong (sometimes) if you apply the spirit of the rules questions.

"As long as the flyball is caught, the obstruction is ignored."

Incorrect choices (w/ my abbrev. of BR) were:
- Since the BR was still able to reach first base, the contact created by the pitcher is ignored

- There cannot be obstruction in the infield when the batted ball is in the outfield

- All runners, including the BR, are awarded one base.

There is a difference in the definition of "foreign substance" in these two rules. When related to possessing a "foreign substance" you would include creams, petroleum jelly, oils, etc. When related to applying a "foreign substance" to the ball, you would also include dirt, rosin, spit, etc. So the penalty is less if you apply a foreign substance because it MAY BE something that is a natural part of being on the field. But bringing a foreign substance on the field is worse - because you planned it. If F1 applied Vaseline to the ball, you wouldn't let him pitch it, AND if you discovered there was a big glob of it under his hat brim, then you would eject him. If F1 put rosin on the ball, you wouldn't let him pitch it, but you wouldn't eject him (unless he kept doing it).

That makes complete sense, but I don't believe there is a rule prohibiting possession of a foreign substance, only applying it to the ball. So, according to the NCAA, if the pitcher has a glob of grease on the brim of his cap, and the umpire sees it, he better wipe some of it on the ball before the ump gets there if he wants to have any chance of getting away with just a warning.

Well, he possess spit, that is a foreign substance. If he rubs dirt from the mound on the ball, that is a foreign substance. How are you going to deal with that?

You need to go back and read post #68 in this thread.

I know that piece. I had that question on my test. (got it right)

My post is on topic with other posts about foreign substance you can spit on a ball, and you possess spit, but they're exclusive.

I get the rule, but it seems as though some are talking themselves into circles.

Cite please.