Bothched foul tip call yesterdays Wash. Nat'ls game
 

Did anyone see the Foul Ball that went straight back, hit the catchers glove and then went foul.. all while R1 stole 2nd base. Initially ruled a foul tip by the HPU (and the steal legal). When the Defensive coach asked the HPU to get help from his other Ump's all 4 confered and left the wrong call in place. Pretty sad when all 4 can't get it right.

Are you saying that the ball was never caught??

Video???

What happened once the ball hit the catcher's glove?

Here's the video. Should have been a foul ball, though the shot from the side shows how the tip call could be made.

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | PHI@WSH: Harper steals his 18th base of the season - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Replays show it never caught but the announcers seemed to be right - ruled dropped on the exchange. Right call given what they believed happened.

I fully understand how the PU could have ruled as he did. Plus, when in doubt, keep the ball live, and see what happens. You can always go back.

What gets me is the other three umpires. Watch the reaction of U2, after the call (and disregard the pushed up, Don Johnson circa 1982 pushed up jacket sleeves). He knows it's wrong, you can see it on his face. Now, why they didn't reverse that call is beyond me.

Two obivious things.

1. They blew the call. (Actually I think the HPU had a brain fart and didn't want to admit it).
2. These announcers are clueless. Where is it that the foul tip signal, indicates that the ball was on lost on the exchange.

Actually, one announcer said the PU gave the foul tip signal, and then gave a signal indicating the catcher lost the ball on the exchange. The replay angles never really stayed on the PU long enough to see if that's indeed what happened.

I don't see how the PU could judge this was a catch and then drop on exchange. When that happens, the ball usually falls straight down, not go caroming off in another direction.

I thought it was funny that the PU got pi$$ed at Manuel for going straight to the crew chief. Looks like he was telling the manager that he should come to him first since he made the call.

U2 actually thought it was foul. He had his hands up signalling a dead ball as Harper was sliding into second base.

Strange. Put an asterisk next to Bryce's stolen base total this year... :p

At 0:05 in the video (long before R1 slides into 2b) U2 is giving the foul ball/time out/dead ball signal. He had the best view of anyone.

I can understand HP missing this one but I don't understand why his buddies didn't help him out a little.

Absolutely terrible.

Anyone know who was on the plate?

MLB lists: Umpires: HP: Manny Gonzalez. 1B: Greg Gibson. 2B: Phil Cuzzi. 3B: Gerry Davis.

Even the base-runner starts heading back to first base eventually.

yep that's pretty bad on an easy obvious call. Sometimes even the best get lazy and aren't tuned in to the game.

Thansk
David

Who was lazy?

If we believe the announcer, the PU apparently had a catch that resulted in a foul tip and then a dropped exchange. How would you as PU indicate that that's what you saw? On a more routine catch and drop--say the pivot man at the front end of an attempted DP--the proper mechanic is to signal the out at the base, and then signal the voluntary release (pulling the hands apart), followed by another emphatic out signal, correct?

We didn't see all that play out on the video because the camera never stayed on the PU long enough, but that's what the announcer indicated. Seems to me if that's what the PU thought happened, he came up with the right mechanic. I can't think of another way to signal a catch-and-dropped release on a foul tip.

If anyone was lazy, it was U2. He shouldn't be coming up with a foul signal if he sees his partner give the foul tip indication. He should have just kept his arms down.

That all said, I do agree that the PU had very questionable judgment on the play. No way the catcher caught that ball, IMO.

This was a very correctable error. It's not that unusual for a field umpire to kill the play and rule "foul ball" on a play in the box that HP doesn't see (ie foul ball catches the batters toe before rolling into fair territory). It is obvious that at least U2 saw the play and should have killed it.

I disagree. This was essentially a catch/no-catch call that the responsible umpire may have missed. Another umpire should not come in right away to overrule his/her partner when that happens.

If U2 definitely had a catch, why didn't he pipe up during the conference? From the video, it appeared to me he had nothing to say.

But ... U2 definitely DIDN'T have a catch.

Bottom line they screwed the pooch, both the HPU and the crew.

HPU either blew it and didn't want to face up to it afterwards or the crew supported him because the OC came to the crew chief first.

That's what I meant. Sorry... :o

FYC alert!! :D

Call missed, but far from terrible. Terrible is safe call at 1B after 26 outs to blow a perfect game.

You got it. U2 looked about as engaged as Obama did last night in the debate.

He should have called a big foul ball - not ignore PU who obviously wasn't paying attention either.

Thanks
DAVid

Sooo, batter swings and nicks a low pitch, and the catcher fields it on the short-hop. PU doesn't see the ball touch dirt, and he rules a foul tip. The BU sees that the catcher didn't catch the ball on the fly, and he gives his partner a subtle signal of that fact. But the PU never looked at his partner for help.

You're saying that the BU should at that point come up with a foul call?

First and foremost, I didn't think BUs were supposed to help their PU partners with a foul call in similar situations, such as when they see a batted ball hit the batter. They are supposed to call Time. But more importantly, in those situations, it is an accepted practice that a BU help out immediately.

I don't think the same is true on the foul tip or foul ball. It's like the BU calling a stealing runner at second out on the tag, and the PU seeing the ball loose during the tag. Should the PU come up immediately with a safe call?

I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm trying to understand what is now allowed when it comes to one umpire overruling another.

That's a completely different scenario than this play, but if i'm PU, yes I want my partner coming out and saying time, foul ball, whatever because he knows that I did NOT see it.

I know you're just throwing out a sitch for argument, but in this play everyone in the ballpark knew it was a foul ball except for the PU.
Yes, the BU should have come out with a stong foul ball.

Now, I know maybe in MLB they don't do that??
But in the leagues that I officiate, it's not only common practice but also expected.

There are many times when as PU you just can't tell. Same on dropped third strike etc.,

Thanks
DAvid

I agree if I am behind home plate, I want my partner to give me a chance to acknowledge if I saw the action or not and then if it is evident I didn't , speak up, call time and get it correct.

HS game several years ago, we had a tipped ball that went to the catchers chest and he trapped it and gloved it quickly. I certainly didn't see this and my partner quickly called time and returned R1.

I have looked at this video another three times and, this is a perfect example of how the media justifies calling for replay on everything. HPU just blew it and didn't want to admit it.

When I'm HP and doing my pre-game, I always tell my partners "Hey, if you see a foul ball in the box, speak up. You're not gonna step on my toes."