Detached equipment (OBR)
 

I need an OBR ruling on this:

Nobody on, nobody out. The batter swings at a pitch in the dirt for strike three. The ball squirts away from the catcher by only a couple feet and he is having a difficult time finding it. The batter begins to sprint to 1st. The catcher removes his mask and eventually finds the ball at his feet. Using his mask, he scoops the ball into his glove and then throws the runner out at 1st.

Again, using OBR - would the batter-runner get a 1 or 2 base award?

Thanks!

Umm...this is simple. What does 7.04e say?

Every live ball has one of three statuses: it's a batted ball, a thrown ball, or a pitch.

The detached equipment rule applies penalties based on the status of the ball. Which one is it in your case when the detached equipment contacts the ball?

The reason I ask is because I was having a discussion with another umpire who pointed out that rule 7.04(e), unlike all the other detached equipment rules, does not require an instantly dead ball. It also says that it does not apply to the batter.

7.04(e) Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when a fielder deliberately touches a pitched ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play, and the award is made from the position of the runner at the time the ball was touched.

So, in his opinion, since the ball is not dead, and the batter is not awarded any bases, the catcher would need to throw out the batter. Any other runners would be awarded at least one base.

I disagreed because I said that there is no batter in this scenario. Because it was an uncaught third strike, there is no batter. The batter has become a batter-runner, who is a runner, not a batter. Therefore, the provisions of 7.04(e) would apply and the "batter" would be awarded 1-base.

You are correct.

Agreed.

Rita

The rule should not have "other than the batter" - it only confuses the issue. But the reason it's there is so that we don't put batters on first base when someone hits the ball with detached equipment on a passed ball or wild throw on stolen base, etc. A NON-batted ball.

Of course, a dropped third strike isn't batted either...:p

Rita

I suspect it confuses only those who don't understand the distinction between a batter and a batter-runner. David Emerling's interlocutor, for instance. :)

Yes, but just saying RUNNER was good enough. It's like saying... All vegetables, other than tomatoes, come from the leaf, stem, or root of the plant.

Well that isn't correct either.

Rita

Actually, I see his point. "All runners, other than the batter..." is misleading because the batter is NOT a runner.

"All vegetables, other than tomatoes..." has the same problem, kinda. The only tiny quibble is that the term 'vegetables' is not botanically on a par with 'fruits', but that's the tiniest of nits.

It's just that all squash and cucumbers are also "fruit" like tomatoes are "fruit". Which is why his sentence (and analogy) doesn't work.

And while we are at it, the whole idea that tomatoes are fruit came from a customs or tarif designation. It was never botanical.

Rita

From my high school biology teacher: if there's a seed, it's a fruit. It doesn't have to be edible. That "helicopter business" (he was referring to maple tree seeds, for example), --> fruit.

Apologies for hijacking. A fruit is a botanical, not merely a customs, category. Vegetable is not.

Not sure where you got your info, Rita.

IIRC, a fruit is a ripened ovary.

Legitimately ripened?

You misunderstood what I wrote because I was incomplete.

There was a time that tomatoes were considered fruit, in line with apples, pears etc. One story has it that this was to escape import duties that were higher on vegetables.

So, the story goes, many people still get all caught up in tomatoes being fruit: E.g. Knowledge is knowing tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

As a science teacher I find that to be annoying. Sure the tomato is the fruit of the plant. But so are squash, cucumbers, snap peas and green beans. We wouldn't even begin to call them "fruit" even though they are "fruits". "Fruit" and "vegetable" are dinner classifications, not science classifications.

That's just part of why his sentence "All vegetables, other than tomatoes, come from the leaf, stem, or root of the plant." doesn't work as an analogy.

Rita

Very good.

I think what everybody is trying to say is that there is a difference between a batter and batter-runner.

I've had detached equipment before on a pitch in the dirt with R1, R2 F2 scoops up the pitched ball with his mask (this was in a FED game before the HSM requirement for F2s)

Wanna read something crazy, look up the FED rule base award for detached equipment on a pitched ball. Could you imagine? :-)

I had one person tell me I was animal out there. True statement since I'm not a vegetable or mineral.

BTW~I used to work with a guy that would buy a sack of tomatoes at roadside fruit/vegetable (?) stands, and eat them like apples.

Let's get back on topic please.

What HSM requirement? :confused:

He's probably talking about the NOCSAE helmet requirement which these days translates into an HSM.

Have they updated the standard? All is meant recently was that the mask and helmet be designed to work together as a unit.

I don't think so, I just rarely see anything NOCSAE certified other than an HSM these days.

Actually, you really can't buy anything new nowadays but the HSM. I visited a few popular equipment websites (Eastbay, HomeRunMonkey, BaseballRampage, etc.) and I couldn't find any of the old helmet/mask combos for purchase.

I did find this one on an Amazon website:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...sL._AA300_.jpg

Yes, it's NOCSAE certified.

It appears to be Darth Vader certified. ;)

I guess, a person could use that...but I inferred as other have that the NOC standard is basically an HSM standard.

So, if instead of strike three, if the pitch were ball four, does the "batter" (now a runner) still get awarded any extra bases?

Hint: Where is the award made from?