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bsaucer Sun Aug 12, 2012 03:55pm

Crew Chief?
 
I was noticing the umpire lineup announcement at the beginning of a MLB game. They listed the 1st Base umpire as "Crew Chief". I thought the "Umpire in Chief" always calls home plate. Is there a difference between "Crew Chief" and "Umpire in Chief"?

tcarilli Sun Aug 12, 2012 04:22pm

At levels where the crew remains together for extended periods of time whether it be a series or a season, the crew chief remains constant. So, in essence the umpire in chief need not be the plate umpire. When a crew chief is not designated, generally, the PU becomes the crew chief, aka, umpire in chief.

Ump29 Sun Aug 12, 2012 09:08pm

You got it all mixed up. The Umpire in Chief is always the plate umpire. The Crew Chief is like a team leader or team captain and stays the same no matter where they call.

UmpTTS43 Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:17pm

Crew Chief is the now accepted designation for Umpire in Chief.

Manny A Mon Aug 13, 2012 08:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 851667)
Crew Chief is the now accepted designation for Umpire in Chief.

Not really. The latest version of OBR still designates the plate umpire as the UIC in rule 9.04(a). "Crew chief" is really a designation of the senior-most umpire of an established crew.

And now for a little worthless trivia:

In the MLB, there are 17 crews, named "A" through "Q". Only one crew, "Crew B", has two umpires with the same number of years in service. Jerry Layne and Bob Davidson both have 23 years, but Layne is the crew chief. All the others have crew chiefs that are senior to their partners.

The longest tenured crew chiefs are Dana DeMuth and Gerry Davis. Both have been chiefs since 1999.

Joe West, the most senior MLB umpire with 34 years in the Bigs, earned his crew chief status in 2003.

Ed Rapuano is the latest designated crew chief. He earned his status in 2011.

The crew chief with the least amount of MLB experience is Gary Cederstrom, with 18 years of service. There are five current MLB umpires--Davidson, Jim Joyce (23), Larry Vanover (19), Angel Hernandez (19), and Wally Bell (19)--who are senior to Cederstrom but aren't crew chiefs.

kylejt Mon Aug 13, 2012 08:55am

So, you've got a Crew Chief, and a UIC in a game. Who makes the final decision on a protested rule, when the four guys can't come to a decision? I know in LL, when you've got a game UIC, which isn't always the PU, he's got the final say so. But I don't know what the Crew Chief's duty is.

tcarilli Mon Aug 13, 2012 09:49am

While, the black letter law is that the PU is UIC, at levels where a Crew Chief is designated, he generally assumes all the roles of UIC and the duties there unto appertaining.

Rich Ives Mon Aug 13, 2012 09:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 851678)
So, you've got a Crew Chief, and a UIC in a game. Who makes the final decision on a protested rule, when the four guys can't come to a decision? I know in LL, when you've got a game UIC, which isn't always the PU, he's got the final say so. But I don't know what the Crew Chief's duty is.

He's the boss of the crew but nt the "boss" of the game.

Manny A Mon Aug 13, 2012 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 851678)
I know in LL, when you've got a game UIC, which isn't always the PU, he's got the final say so.

That might be true at the local level, Kyle. For example, a two-person crew may entail an experienced father doing the bases with his son doing the plate. So the expectation is for the father to be the UIC.

But LL rules, just like OBR, designate the PU as the game UIC. You cannot have the BU be the UIC, because there are certain responsibilities that belong to the UIC that cannot be delegated. For example, Rule 5.01 tells us that the UIC calls "Play" to start a game. You won't see a BU make the "Play" call from behind first base. ;)

FWIW, when I umpire LL games as BU, and I have an inexperienced umpire doing the plate, I will advise him/her when it comes to things like calling games due to weather, etc. And it will be him/her, as the UIC, announcing those decisions. I won't take it upon myself to make those proclamations and usurp his/her authority.

Rita C Mon Aug 13, 2012 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 851698)

FWIW, when I umpire LL games as BU, and I have an inexperienced umpire doing the plate, I will advise him/her when it comes to things like calling games due to weather, etc. And it will be him/her, as the UIC, announcing those decisions. I won't take it upon myself to make those proclamations and usurp his/her authority.

LL rules have the adult have that authority if it's a junior umpire.

Rita

UmpTTS43 Mon Aug 13, 2012 01:43pm

There are responsibilities that fall under the PU and responsibilities that fall under the CC. Quoting the rule book is no good as it is fraught with errors and inconsistencies. This is another example of this. UIC in the rule book means PU at times and CC at times. Generally it is CC. Although the CC cannot overturn another umpires ruling, he is the final say when it comes to rules interps, weather situations, and the like. PU and BU are equals. If there are 2 umpires, one should be recognized as the CC and it need not necessarily be the PU.

The term UIC is commonly used during a tournament environment where there is one umpire that oversees the umpiring crews. Although that is the case, there is still a CC on the field.

Simply discussing terminolgy I know but there are differences.

OBR

Rich Ives Mon Aug 13, 2012 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 851704)
There are responsibilities that fall under the PU and responsibilities that fall under the CC. Quoting the rule book is no good as it is fraught with errors and inconsistencies. This is another example of this. UIC in the rule book means PU at times and CC at times. Generally it is CC. Although the CC cannot overturn another umpires ruling, he is the final say when it comes to rules interps, weather situations, and the like. PU and BU are equals. If there are 2 umpires, one should be recognized as the CC and it need not necessarily be the PU.

The term UIC is commonly used during a tournament environment where there is one umpire that oversees the umpiring crews. Although that is the case, there is still a CC on the field.

Simply discussing terminolgy I know but there are differences.

OBR

Quoting the rule book won't help because "crew chief" isn't there.

UmpTTS43 Mon Aug 13, 2012 02:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 851715)
Quoting the rule book won't help because "crew chief" isn't there.

Stating the obvious again? UIC within OBR is an antiquated term and is no longer used. Just because it is referenced in the rule book does not make it right. Consider it one of the 230+ errors in rule book.

Manny A Mon Aug 13, 2012 02:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rita C (Post 851700)
LL rules have the adult have that authority if it's a junior umpire.

I don't recall ever seeing that in the LL rule book, Rita, at least not for regular season play. In the tournament section of the book it does say the UIC must be an adult.

What the LL rule book says is that if there is no adult umpires on the field, the league is to designate an adult as the game coordinator, and that game coordinator has sole authority of rule 3.10(b). But I couldn't find anything that says if the crew is made up of an adult on the bases and a junior behind the plate, the junior umpire is not the UIC for all intents and purposes.

Heck, I've seen junior umpires that could run circles around their adult partners.

Manny A Mon Aug 13, 2012 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 851716)
Stating the obvious again? UIC within OBR is an antiquated term and is no longer used. Just because it is referenced in the rule book does not make it right. Consider it one of the 230+ errors in rule book.

UIC within OBR may be antiquated at the MLB level. But does it not apply elsewhere?

If there's a two-man crew working a MiLB A-Ball or Double-A game, is one of them really designated the "crew chief"?

UmpTTS43 Mon Aug 13, 2012 02:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 851718)
If there's a two-man crew working a MiLB A-Ball or Double-A game, is one of them really designated the "crew chief"?

Yes. And it may change from game to game.

Manny A Tue Aug 14, 2012 07:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 851720)
Yes. And it may change from game to game.

Really? What would prompt that? If the same two umpires work a four-game series, why would they change designation of crew chief from game to game?

I may be wrong, but I feel that completely substituting "UIC" with "Crew Chief" in OBR is not appropriate. The problem is that it's not an antiquated reference; rather, "UIC" blurs the responsibilities between the crew chief and the plate umpire.

I bring up the example from 5.01 again. It says the UIC will start the game by announcing "Play". That's not a crew chief's call unless he's behind the plate. And 9.04(a) specifically mandates that the UIC is behind the plate.

So if someone's going to make any changes to OBR to fix this particular error, they really need to articulate those responsibilities of the crew chief (e.g., calling games due to weather, etc.) and the plate umpire.

UmpTTS43 Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 851765)
Really? What would prompt that? If the same two umpires work a four-game series, why would they change designation of crew chief from game to game?

I may be wrong, but I feel that completely substituting "UIC" with "Crew Chief" in OBR is not appropriate. The problem is that it's not an antiquated reference; rather, "UIC" blurs the responsibilities between the crew chief and the plate umpire.

I bring up the example from 5.01 again. It says the UIC will start the game by announcing "Play". That's not a crew chief's call unless he's behind the plate. And 9.04(a) specifically mandates that the UIC is behind the plate.

So if someone's going to make any changes to OBR to fix this particular error, they really need to articulate those responsibilities of the crew chief (e.g., calling games due to weather, etc.) and the plate umpire.

Sometimes a CC is named in 2 man, sometimes one isn't. In the event that one is not, the PU usually assumes this role. When you deal with crews larger than that, there is a CC. When this happens, there is no UIC, just PU and 2 BU's, one of which is CC.

Again, quoting rules does not make your assurtion correct. There are many inconsistencies and incorrect statements in the rule book. Rule book says that on any interference the ball is immediately dead. Incorrect. The rule book says that on type A obstruction the ball is immediately dead. Incorrect. Rule book says PU is UIC. Incorrect. Rule book says UIC puts ball in play. Incorrect. This is why you need interpretations and clarifications.

If MLB is unwilling to edit and change the rules so that they are updated and consistent, do you think that they are worried about the titles and roles of umpires?

zm1283 Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 851718)
UIC within OBR may be antiquated at the MLB level. But does it not apply elsewhere?

If there's a two-man crew working a MiLB A-Ball or Double-A game, is one of them really designated the "crew chief"?

Double A and Triple A use three man crews.

Manny A Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 851776)
When this happens, there is no UIC, just PU and 2 BU's, one of which is CC.

Forgive me for being stubborn, but is there a rule cite or interpretation for this? I've never heard or read anything anywhere that says the whole concept of "UIC" in pro ball is gone.

tcarilli Tue Aug 14, 2012 02:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 851791)
Forgive me for being stubborn, but is there a rule cite or interpretation for this? I've never heard or read anything anywhere that says the whole concept of "UIC" in pro ball is gone.

The theme is that the term UIC is an arbitrary designation in the rule book for PU in most instances. Many of the things the OBR book says are performed by the UIC could be performed just as well by a CC who is not the PU. This is typically what is done when umpires are in crews of more than two for extended periods of time. Occasionally this is true for single assignments, ie, a non PU is designated as CC. The take away should be unless otherwise stated the PU is the UIC. If otherwise stated the CC may perform those duties of the UIC that are not by virtue of them requiring the umpire be positioned behind the plate his.

Rules are open to interpretation and adjustment. That is the spirit and intent of the rules can be as important as what is written. At this point, I have can't get over this feeling that we are picking fly **** out of pepper. Does it really matter that we designate the umpire who puts the ball in play as the PU or the UIC?

Given that rules and designation of the umpires are meant to facilitate the playing of the game, how does it matter that the OBR refers to UIC and gives him some specific duties and there is another designation called crew chief who has some of the duties yielded to him when crews work together for extended periods of time? That is what effect does the black-letter law designation you seem to be insisting have on the administration of the game if everyone involved in its administration understand the rules of engagement, ie the de facto designation of what one umpire is called versus the de jure designation of one umpire?


(cont below)

tcarilli Tue Aug 14, 2012 02:05pm

(continued from above)

Look at the places umpire-in-chief appears in the rule book (I can't quote them all because that makes this post more than 10 times the allowable size).

Rules where UIC is mentioned that CC could be substituted with no change in effect or intent:
1.15(c), 2.00 A CALLED GAME, 2.00 A FORFEITED GAME 2.00 MANAGER, 3.10 (b), 3.11, 3.13, 3.18, 4.10 (a), 4.14, 4.15, 9.04 (b) (1), (4), (6), (7), (9), 9.04(c)
Rules where UIC is mentioned that PU really needs to be responsible:
3.03, 3.06, 3.07m, 3.12, 4.01, 5.01, 6.10, 8.01 (f), 8.02, 8.03, 9.03(a), 9.04 (b) (2), (3), (5), (8)
9.03 (b)

MD Longhorn Tue Aug 14, 2012 02:20pm

Quote:

If there are two or more umpires, one shall be designated umpire-in-chief and the others field umpires.
Quote:

Originally Posted by tcarilli (Post 851798)
Book is silent on more than 2...I don't think we would then argue that there is no UIC.

No, no it's not.

lawump Tue Aug 14, 2012 02:28pm

As to the professional level:

In MLB, the term umpire-in-chief is simply not used. Yes, it is in the rulebook, but the MLB Umpire's Manual (MLBUM) which sets forth the duties and responsibilities of the crew chief has completely replaced anything set forth in the rulebook about the U-I-C. Simply put, the crew chief is the man in charge on the field. By way of example, it is the crew chief (and crew chief only) who decides when to suspend play (due to weather or other factors). It is only a crew chief who can decide that a game is forfeited (and this has happened in MLB). These are just two examples; I'll give you other examples. Let's say a team complains that the opposing team's batter used an illegal bat OR that the opposing team's pitcher is illegally altering the ball. In either case, if the plate umpire is not the crew chief he would NEVER render judgment on the legality of a bat or whether a ball has been intentialy "doctored" or not without involving his crew chief.

From MLB.com: The Crew Chief shall coordinate and direct his crew's compliance with the Office of the Commissioner's rules and policies. Other Crew Chief responsibilities include: leading periodic discussions and reviews of situations, plays and rules with his crew; generally directing the work of the other umpires on the crew, with particular emphasis on uniformity in dealing with unique situations; assigning responsibilities for maintaining time limits during the game; ensuring the timely filing of all required crew reports for incidents such as ejections, brawls and protested games; and reporting to the Office of Commissioner any irregularity in field conditions at any ballpark."

In minor league baseball, crew chiefs are assigned in Triple-A and Double-A. They are not assigned in Single-A (which uses two-man crews). In Single-A, in any unusual situation, the umpires are instructed to consult with one another prior to making any decision.

Of course, as set forth above, there are certain duties that have to be the plate umpire's duties, whether or not the plate umpire is the crew chief.

tcarilli Tue Aug 14, 2012 02:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 851799)
No, no it's not.

that's a bad f'up on my part. i plead cross-eyes from reading, cuttibg, and pasting the refs.

mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

MD Longhorn Tue Aug 14, 2012 03:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcarilli (Post 851801)
that's a bad f'up on my part. I plead cross-eyes from reading, cuttibg, and pasting the refs.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

lol.

ozzy6900 Tue Aug 14, 2012 04:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawump (Post 851800)
As to the professional level:

In MLB, the term umpire-in-chief is simply not used. Yes, it is in the rulebook, but the MLB Umpire's Manual (MLBUM) which sets forth the duties and responsibilities of the crew chief has completely replaced anything set forth in the rulebook about the U-I-C. Simply put, the crew chief is the man in charge on the field. By way of example, it is the crew chief (and crew chief only) who decides when to suspend play (due to weather or other factors). It is only a crew chief who can decide that a game is forfeited (and this has happened in MLB). These are just two examples; I'll give you other examples. Let's say a team complains that the opposing team's batter used an illegal bat OR that the opposing team's pitcher is illegally altering the ball. In either case, if the plate umpire is not the crew chief he would NEVER render judgment on the legality of a bat or whether a ball has been intentialy "doctored" or not without involving his crew chief.

From MLB.com: The Crew Chief shall coordinate and direct his crew's compliance with the Office of the Commissioner's rules and policies. Other Crew Chief responsibilities include: leading periodic discussions and reviews of situations, plays and rules with his crew; generally directing the work of the other umpires on the crew, with particular emphasis on uniformity in dealing with unique situations; assigning responsibilities for maintaining time limits during the game; ensuring the timely filing of all required crew reports for incidents such as ejections, brawls and protested games; and reporting to the Office of Commissioner any irregularity in field conditions at any ballpark."

In minor league baseball, crew chiefs are assigned in Triple-A and Double-A. They are not assigned in Single-A (which uses two-man crews). In Single-A, in any unusual situation, the umpires are instructed to consult with one another prior to making any decision.

Of course, as set forth above, there are certain duties that have to be the plate umpire's duties, whether or not the plate umpire is the crew chief.

Finally.... someone who knows what he is talking about! Thanks, Law... I was trying to state what you did but I just didn't have the time to simplify it while I was at work.

Eastshire Wed Aug 15, 2012 08:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawump (Post 851800)
As to the professional level:

In MLB, the term umpire-in-chief is simply not used. Yes, it is in the rulebook, but the MLB Umpire's Manual (MLBUM) which sets forth the duties and responsibilities of the crew chief has completely replaced anything set forth in the rulebook about the U-I-C. Simply put, the crew chief is the man in charge on the field. By way of example, it is the crew chief (and crew chief only) who decides when to suspend play (due to weather or other factors). It is only a crew chief who can decide that a game is forfeited (and this has happened in MLB). These are just two examples; I'll give you other examples. Let's say a team complains that the opposing team's batter used an illegal bat OR that the opposing team's pitcher is illegally altering the ball. In either case, if the plate umpire is not the crew chief he would NEVER render judgment on the legality of a bat or whether a ball has been intentialy "doctored" or not without involving his crew chief.

From MLB.com: The Crew Chief shall coordinate and direct his crew's compliance with the Office of the Commissioner's rules and policies. Other Crew Chief responsibilities include: leading periodic discussions and reviews of situations, plays and rules with his crew; generally directing the work of the other umpires on the crew, with particular emphasis on uniformity in dealing with unique situations; assigning responsibilities for maintaining time limits during the game; ensuring the timely filing of all required crew reports for incidents such as ejections, brawls and protested games; and reporting to the Office of Commissioner any irregularity in field conditions at any ballpark."

In minor league baseball, crew chiefs are assigned in Triple-A and Double-A. They are not assigned in Single-A (which uses two-man crews). In Single-A, in any unusual situation, the umpires are instructed to consult with one another prior to making any decision.

Of course, as set forth above, there are certain duties that have to be the plate umpire's duties, whether or not the plate umpire is the crew chief.

It's always been my impression that crew chief is, well, the chief of the crew. The one responsible for leadership and administration (that is the duties you describe in the second paragraph). I don't see that as being inherently incompatible with with the plate umpire being the UIC of a particular game.

Until this thread, it never occurred to me that the PU was not the de jure UIC in the MLB, even though it's quite clear that the crew chief is involved in major game administration issues.

lawump Wed Aug 15, 2012 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 851831)
It's always been my impression that crew chief is, well, the chief of the crew. The one responsible for leadership and administration (that is the duties you describe in the second paragraph). I don't see that as being inherently incompatible with with the plate umpire being the UIC of a particular game.

Until this thread, it never occurred to me that the PU was not the de jure UIC in the MLB, even though it's quite clear that the crew chief is involved in major game administration issues.

It is not necessarily "incompatible". However, it is simply not how it is done in practice on the professional level. The crew chief is in complete control of the game on the professional level.

I'll give you another example: In the late 1990's there was an MLB game in which two different base umpires made two different calls on the same play. (Two umpires went out on a fly ball and one ruled "catch" and the other ruled "no catch". There were runners on base. Hence, it was a major SNAFU.) The other base umpire (not the plate umpire) was the crew chief. It was the crew chief who got the umpires together (not the plate umpire) and who ultimately decided the ruling on the play after consulting with his crew.

Steven Tyler Thu Aug 16, 2012 05:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 851810)
Finally.... someone who knows what he is talking about! Thanks, Law... I was trying to state what you did but I just didn't have the time to simplify it while I was at work.

Good to know next time.


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