Tournament seed question (home vs. visitor)
 

Hi guys. There is a question raised that I'd like to ask you guys who seem to be the best experts I've seen about the game, tournaments, etc. I'm coaching a Little League team (minor division) in a very intense 6-team double elimination tournament. We started out as the #3 seed and didn't get the first round bye (obviously). We have won all of our games and have remained in the winners bracket. Championship game coming up. The original #1 seed has a chance to come back out of the losers bracket and face us in the championship game. So here's the question--should the original #1 seed still get the "home team" advantage (by batting last) or do we earn the "home team" advantage by remaining in the winners bracket? I personally think we would still be the visiting team if the #1 seed comes out of the losers bracket to face us in the championship game. BUT, ironically, some of the league officials are saying otherwise. I just want to do what is right for the kids and get your all's opinion. Sorry for the off-topic question, but I can't find a definitive answer. Thanks in advance.

I do not think any one here can answer this question directly (other than opinion) as it would likely depend on the rules of the tournament. Also not knowing who is responsible for the tournament either is also one more reason we cannot answer this question as well. This is a tournament director/committee issue. We do not control this as umpires.

Peace

In my coaching days years ago I have coached in many tournaments. I have also been tournament director for quite a few. I have never coached or been a TD for a tournament game, local, district, state or regional that home team was not decided by coin toss before the game. If I had to do it I would call Tails every time and if I could I would designate an assistant to go do the coin toss, because I did not care. My focus was on getting my team to score more than the other and play good defense. If your players get a vibe from you that you care who is home team, you have planted a bad seed.

Get over it, league officials are correct, toss a coin, send an assistant to do it.

Thanks. Trust me, I'm "over it". Like I said in the original post, I was cool with just batting in the "visitor" slot. It's no big deal at all, and my kids are just having fun. I just figured you guys might know what the usual practice is in a tournament like this. I'll just let them flip a coin and let me know how it turns out when it comes time to have my kids bat or take the field. I'm so proud of all the kids. The playground has all different color jerseys on it after each game. They're having the time of their life.

Did you really say a tournament played by 9 and 10 year olds was "intense?"

+1

The only thing they'll remember is how the ice cream was after the game(s).

Ignore the dumb comments at the end... I remember games / seasons / tourneys from when I was 9 or 10. Some of them were intense TO ME, which is what matters.

Tournaments generally state somewhere what the home/visitor rules are for the tourney. I'd say that at least 3/4 of the tourneys I work do not use the seeding at all to determine home or visitor - it's a coinflip at the plate before the game. The higher seeds already have the advantage they've earned by virtue of the opponents they get to play. Additionally, at least half of those, perhaps a bit more, state that the ONLY game that is not flipped for is the winner bracket vs loser bracket game - winner bracket is home. In tourneys with IF games, the IF game is always a coin flip.

I umpire a ton of 9-10 year old tournament games as a bit of community service -- the only people it's intense for are the coaches and parents, it seems.

You should have come to either of the recent USFA softball qualifiers I worked in NW Houston. Had you not been told in advance, you would not know these girls were 10. In size, in attitude, and in ability. Yes, 10U baseball and softball is often slightly more than babysitting, with the occasional 2-3 kids per team that can play and take it seriously. But most of the teams still playing this late into the season are for real - both boys and girls.

Again, it depends on where you live, and what league it is. I've worked 9-10 LL Minors games that the players weren't very skilled or coordinated and spent most of their time chasing dandilions or picking their noses. Then I've worked 9-10 Mustang games with some very skilled young ballplayers who took the game quite seriously and these games were very competitive and intense.

I remember when I was a kid, we were more skilled as a general rule, and played the game with intensity from Day 1. That was back when baseball was all there was to do during baseball season.

Thanks for the comments. Heck yeah it's intense at times, but not in a malignant way. We have 6 teams in the league this year, and it's been one of those years where there was not a marquee dominant team but rather a bunch of teams running neck and neck. And trust me, they are very aware of the score at all times. It's coach pitch (age is 7-9 with a handful of 6 year olds). I saw a 9 year old kid bounce one of those semi-hard "level 5" training baseballs off the center field fence the other day. In years past, we've definitely had a lot of dandelion pickers, but man they have really improved as a whole group. We make sure they have a good time, and I keep telling them "guys, this is the time of your life, enjoy it". I just hope they someday look back and see that after they progress into the competitiveness of the upper levels and life itself. They constantly bug me throughout the game with "what's the score, do we get to bat again, i need to go the bathroom, etc." Then, after the game, they all go to the playground and have fun, no matter what color jersey they're wearing.

As for the comment about when WE were kids--heck yeah I agree. We didn't have ipods, xboxes, six zillion TV channels, etc. My dad bought us a wooden bat and one baseball. And we taught OURSELVES how to play in the front yard. Where there was an argument on a play, we learned how to work it out among ourselves. I honestly think the 9-12 year old Little League teams from 25 years ago in my community could demolish the teams now. We lived to play ball.

Hmmmmm!

• Little League
• 60' diamond
• Fenced in field (normally in LL)
• Home field advantage?

Please tell me how a home field is an advantage on a field that is pretty much the same where ever you go. Unless there is a better snack bar on one field as opposed to another, I do not see an advantage.

He didn't mention a home "field" advantage, he said home "team" advantage, which is always advantages in that you get the last at bats.

When I was 9 there was no such thing as a 9-10 league, there were 9-12 leagues and if you were a very good 9 or 10 year old you make the team and get to practice for a couple years with the older guys till you paid your dues. If you were not good enough, you go home.

Now there are competitive 9-10 year olds becuase they are playing, with kids their own age, and have been for several years. And there are Fall leagues so they play some more. And there are very competitive and intense 9-10 year old tournaments. Even 20 years ago, when my kids were that age the tournaments they played in were intense. I remember them well and I feel sure the players do too, and I am sure the players remember nothing about how the ice cream tasted, because there was none to be tasted after games.

Some here are shooting off mouth about things they know nothing about.

Oh, you're right, my bad.....
Well, just score more runs than the other team and don't allow them to score and you'll win! Home field, Home team doesn't matter then! :D

But even if they had a home field advantage, baseball is one of the few sports where none of this matters, even with the last at bat. It just means you bat last, it does not mean you get an advantage from being the home team.

Peace

You know exactly how many runs you have to score to win. That is an advantage. We can argue later about how big or small it is.

That's just wrong. Baseball absolutely has the BIGGEST home team advantage (especially when played on a neutral court). Crowd likely means the same thing to every sport, so take that away. Each sport has MINOR differences for the home team (football excepted), baseball/softball has the greatest difference, in that your scoring opportunity always comes last.

Why does that matter? Because in late inning situations, you know exactly how many runs you need to win. In a tie game in the last (or extra) innings, the visitor has to make a strategic decision about whether to go for a big inning or sacrifice an out to get across a run... the home team KNOWS how many runs it needs, and can avoid that choice. They would not sacrifice if they needed 2 runs and only had 1 person on. Ditto stolen base decisions, etc.

In bigger baseball without DH, the pitcher also gets to go another inning than he would if he was visitor, all other things being equal, before being pinch hit for.

I don't know if there are any hard and fast rules on this, but in my experience where home/visitor are not decided by coin flip then these are often handled with the team at the top of the bracket being home team.

For what it's worth, our LL has a long tradition of taking visitor when winning the coin flip in tournament games, the logic being we want the opportunity to be the first team with runs on the board.

You also know many runs you can afford to let score. If I was up two runs and the home team had R3 and R1 with no outs, I would gladly trade a double play for a run. That and you had very good pitcher to close the game.

The biggest advantage in all of sports? MLB used to alternate the home field games every other year and now they use the All-Star Game as the standard for who gets the home field. I have not seen any games in history be that greatly affected by who the home team is in such a way that it was a guarantee that the winner at home would win. It is certainly not even close to what you see in the NBA for example or even in the NFL where the team with the home field often goes to the Super Bowl in the Conference Championship.

It is one thing to have the last at bat, but if you score enough runs you are going to win the game regardless of what your opponent actually does anyway. And it has been proven in post seasons in the pros and even college tournaments that the team that hosts is not always the winner or the team that necessarily has a distinct advantage if they are the listed home team on the game. And then when we take this down to the youth level, this means even less. Just because a team knows they have to score a run or two to continue the game, certainly does not mean they will accomplish that feat. And it does not mean it is common that they do either. I know with our HS post season it is not unusual to see the top seed (who gets the home position) often has lost. In my state they seed teams by Sectionals and if a team wins the Sectional they go onto something called the Super Sectional which is one game to determine who is going on the State Finals (Semifinal level for the title). I have umpired many of the games in the Regionals and Sectionals where the home team lost the game in a big way. And if we went to the bottom of the last inning, they certainly did not miraculously win the game because they knew how many runs they had to score. And at the youth level if you just have the better pitching or the better defense, then none of that usually is going to matter.

It is one thing to say what you know you have to do; it is another to accomplish what you know you have to do. And with youth ball that "knowing" often puts more presser on the team to do something and when they cannot do anything the kids often panic and do not come through.

Peace

Field and crowd is strictly a "mind" thing. What matters is never letting up on your game. Steal, bunt, move the men around the bases all the while, keeping the opponent at bay. This is where I get into arguments with people in "letting up" under sportsmanship. I never changed my game plan, neither did the teams I played for. The object was to win and be in 1st place at the end of the season. Granted this is on the professional side but in my time, I have seen so many teams 'ease off" because they were beating the pants off the opponent, only to see a few bad plays and the opponent is right back in the game.

Please, let's not argue about this. I have never conceded the issue in all the years on these boards and no one will ever get me to change my mind. My feelings always were if I have to let up to allow you to play, you should not be here to start with!

Checking the records
 

This article explains that MLB seems to have a lower percentage of home teams winning games than NBA or NFL, though.

Decision may hinge on who is at bat, but agree, decisions to be made for visitor, but nevertheless they are made throughout the game, and in a youth league tournament it don't matter much.

Home matters for teams who actually play at home fields, they know every nuance of the field. Playing LF wall in Boston is certainly an advantage for the home team vs. the visitors. Who is home team for youth league players in tournaments on neutral fields is hardly relevant.

The question asked was about how it is decided in youth league tournaments, not whether advantageous, and for the most part that has been answered.

For the record, that is exactly what eventually happened. We won 15-10!

FWIW home winning percentage is highest in professional soccer, not baseball.