An interesting force out/obstruction
 

Hello. I'm new here and want to say hello from Kentucky. I coach a minor league (7-9 year olds) baseball team. I saw a play last night that was very interesting (at least to me after thinking about it). I think the umpire got it right, but I can see how it could be confusing. R1 and R2 on base. Batter hit a ground ball to shallow 3rd base area. F5 fields the ball and steps on 3rd for the force out, BUT at the very same moment, F6 ran into R2 and impeded her progress to third. She was probably about 6 feet from the bag, and it was obvious that the fielder was going to get the out (i.e. It wasn't going to be close). The umpire called the runner out and stated that the obstruction did not apply because she had no chance of beating the fielder to the base. Any thoughts or comments?

1. Teach your fielders to stay out the baseline.

2. I agree with the ruling, if not the reasoning. No provision of the rules "suspends" the obstruction rule if the runner has "no chance" of beating the fielder. If the obstruction happened at the "very same moment" as the out, then I'd rule that the runner was out before being obstructed.

Thanks for the reply. Actually, my players were on offense. The other coach reminded his kids to avoid the base path. I just thought it was an interesting case. Our league is a pretty fun bunch.

See, I teach differently. If the defensive player is going after a batted ball, I teach them they have priority over the runner, and need to go after it. Too many shortstops hold up from charging a ball, and lose out on a play, because they think they can't get in the path of R2.

In the orginal post, it's simply a matter of what happened first. This would be type a OBS, if that happened first, and the play would be dead at the time the runner was impeded. What happened after that wouldn't matter. So it's critical to determine the order of what happened.

Yes I agree the obstruction would have negated the rest of the play if it happened before the base tag. But it pretty much happened simultaneously, so the umpire made a judgement call and called the force out at third.

Coincidentally, I just had a guy walk into my workplace who's been a little league umpire for about 10 years. I mentioned the play to him and he brought up another point that I'm not so sure about. In the play, both F5 and F6 charged the ball. After F5 beat F6 to the ball, F6 ran back toward his playing area and collided with my runner. The guy I just talked to said that was NOT obstruction BECAUSE F6 could have theoretically been trying to make a play at second considering R1 was coming to second (even though F5 was making an unassisted play at third at the time with the ball in his glove). I'm not so sure about that.....

...with good reason. He's wrong.

On a batted ball, there is no more than one protected fielder--the fielder who, in the umpire's judgment, has the best chance of fielding the ball at the time. Any impeding of a runner by any other fielder is obstruction. Any impeding of the protected fielder is interference.

Once the ball is fielded, it is no longer a batted ball. Any impeding of a runner by any fielder without the ball is obstruction, unless (assuming OBR) the fielder is in the act of catching a thrown ball when a play is imminent. For this type of impediment to be legal, the act that impedes the runner must be a part of the necessary action of the fielder to make the play. Under FED, there is no imminent play allowance--the fielder must allow some access to the base unless he has possession of the ball.

Thanks! He's a long-time friend of mine, and I can't wait to tell him. :D

Yeah, baby. Gettin' lucky in Kentucky!

You don't ignore the obstruction, you either enforce or not enforce the penalty.

But how do you enforce it in that situation? Does it overrule the force out at third regardless of whether or not the third baseman tagged the bag before, at the same time, or after the obstruction occurred?

If the runner was obstructed before that runner was out, you enforce the obstruction, even if it's almost definite that the runner would have been out. In your sitch, if the OBS was first, runner gets 3rd.

I wouldn't put it this way. This issue is whether the hindrance occurred before the runner was out. If before, then it's OBS. If not, then not.

If you rule obstruction, you must enforce the penalty.

R2 was header to 3B. The play was made at 3B. The play was thus made on R2. R2 was obsrtructed. Type A. Automatic minimum one base award. R2 gets 3B. There's no woulda-shoulda about Type A.

In FED it's ALWAYS a minimum one base.

Convince me I'm wrong.

If you're talking to me, my point is that it's impossible to hinder a retired runner.

If F5 steps on 3rd before contact between R2 and F6...out and no obstruction.
If contact between R2 and F6 happens before F5 steps on 3rd (regardless of how far away the runner might be) ...award the runner 3rd base (for OBR - dead ball....for FED delayed dead ball).

In regards to the OP, if the obstruction occurred after R2 was put out then you don't have obstruction, right? BUT, this would have been Type A (OBR) had you ruled the runner, absent the obstruction, could have beat the throw to the bag on the force out. So, you have to 'umpire' in this case, and use your best judgement based on the situation.

In type B (OBR only!) you have the option to penalize as to nullify the act of obstruction, again, having to 'umpire' and award or NOT award based on that. In FED, you have no option, you penalize at least one base.

So, I would put it 'that way' for Type B obstruction for the OBR rule set only.

NO!

If you rule obstruction he gets the base. No woulda-shoulda on type A.

The play was being made on a runner who was obstructed. Basic type a definition is it not?

Rich, my point was/is. If you rule obstruction on this play, it is Type A, and you would award R2 third. There is no 'shoulda/woulda' on Type A. Dead ball, award a base. The judgement factor is WHEN did THIS obstruction occur? Before/simultaneously or after the out?

And if it happens at the same time, tie goes to the runner!:rolleyes:

Not if he's a retired runner at the time of the hindrance. If the runner bumps into F5 5 seconds after the ball has been thrown back to F1, are you still asking for obstruction, coach?

Of course, the hindrance might have happened first: all I'm saying is that the umpire has a judgment to make about which happened first.

I was waiting for this one!:) Good one!

So ... you incorrectly rule Type B and say the runner wouldn't have made 3rd. OK. Then you want to put R2 back on 2nd. With R1? Interesting. I guess the next pitch begins with R1, R2a and R2b...

But your previous post implies something quite different than that:
The bolded part implies that the judgement is whether or not the runner would have beaten the play had there been no obstruction. (You may not have intended that, but that's how it reads.)

Please feel free to disregard the original post.

Thank You.

Nope, coach:

The out was recorded/ play was made on a runner who LATER was "obstructed" separately from the play/ out.

There is no rule penalizing the hinderance of a RETIRED runner who continues to run the bases, and in fact, NOTHING the defense does AFTER Rx is out can make him "UNout" or entitle him to any base award.

Carter, the OP says the OBS happened at the "very same moment" that the out was recorded. As usual, we have to judge which happened first. It might well be the OBS, in which case, I'm sure both of us would enforce the penalty.

But you're restating my point regarding the other possibility: it's impossible to obstruct a retired runner.

It wasn't "later". Read the OP.

" . . F5 fields the ball and steps on 3rd for the force out, BUT at the very same moment, F6 ran into R2 . . "

I understand your point. I don't think you understand mine. There was a play being made on the runner that was obstructed.

I understand your point [as does mbyron]; I KNOW you don't understand ours [well, ok, mine, so's I don't tar mb w/ my brush] - there ARE NO TIES IN BASEBALL - at least not when I'm explaining a call to Skippy. One thing ALWAYS happens before OR after another, NEVER "at the same instant".

If I called your "obstructed" runner out on the force, then the out happened BEFORE the obstruction, and "obstruction" on a retired runner is a nullity.

If I have Obstruction on the runner which happens BEFORE the force out is made, then - yep, Type A, enforce the penalty, ball is dead at the instant of the obstruction, the out never happend, award the base.

We are never going to have a useful discussion about what to do if the out and the obstruction "happen at the same instant", because, in Baseball, that is impossible.