How to correct?
 

High school varsity game yesterday. Runner on 1st with 1 out. Batter hits one to right-center and fielder bobbles it, then throws in general direction of 3rd base. Ball goes into dugout.

I'm the PU. I kill it when the ball goes into dugout and award R1 home. BU awards the B-R 2nd. The award should be 2 bases from time of throw on throw by outfielder, right? BU explains his call to offensive coach by saying that the B-R wasn't "half-way" to 2nd, so he only gets 2nd. BU never looked at me or asked for help on the call.

Is there any way for me to fix this? If I don't, it makes me look bad. If I do, it makes him look bad. This is my 1st year, so I'm still trying to learn.

Thanks in advance!

If BU never came to you, where did you hear his explanation?

If I (personally) heard his explanation, I'd have called him aside right then (interrupting his conversation with coach if necessary), and quietly talked through the rule, and let HIM correct the award.

"Time", John can I speak to you please. "When a throw from the outfield goes into dead ball territory the award is two bases from the time of throw. The batter-runner had acheived first base and therfore, should be awarded third."

Then give your partner the oppurtunity to make the correct award.

Now being a rookie, I can understand the reluctance in wanting to correct your partner however it is both of your responsibility to get the awards correct.

Now if your partner refuses because he has already made up his version of the correct rule, then you are put into a bind especially being a rookie. I would probably insist on the correct ruling being made and do everything possible to make sure my partner changes his ruling. I am going to leave it at that for now because there is a whole other scenario that can be discussed if your partner refuses to make the correct ruling.

I was sweeping plate as he was explaining the call to 3rd base coach, but they were close enough for me to hear.

I turned and tried to catch his eye, but he never looked at me. I guess I should have called him over. Of course, the other part of the problem is I'm new and he's a veteran...which introduces a whole other dynamic into the equation.

I know the important thing is to get the call right, but I don't want to get a bad reputation with fellow umpires by correcting veterans. I guess I should just worry about the call and let the rest fall where it falls.

Thanks for the input!

I believe your responsibility as PU, once you know the mistake is a rules mistake, and not a judgement mistake ("Coach, I don't think she was at first base yet when the ball was released") - is to discuss the rule with partner and let him make the call. If he insists his made-up rule is right, it's his call. Coach is more than able to protest the rules misapplication at that point. Not more you can do. Neither umpire trumps the other (put yourself in the other position ... say you made the RIGHT call as BU, but PU comes out to tell you it's 1+1 or somesuch ... it is YOUR decision what to do with PU's information).

No one likes being in your position. But at some point, it happens to all of us (or at least all of us who care enough about the job to spend time reading here and posting here!) There are veteran smitty's everywhere who have not cracked open a book in years. Sometimes you have to be very careful in your wording with such a veteran - I understand your need to not ruffle feathers, and it's a tough line. But your responsibility is to the game.

When you heard him misquote the rule, you should have approached him, AWAY from the coach, explain what you thought the rule was and why ("John, I'm pretty positive that when Dave went over this in the clinic, he told us this award is two bases from where they were when the ball was released, regardless of how far off the base they were."), and then it's up to him to fix, and up to coach to protest if he fails to fix it. You can always bring it up again in post-game if he doesn't fix it, using the approach that you want to understand the rule better WITH him. If he still doesn't get that he's wrong, bring it up to your assignor.

First of all, if you partner never called to you for help, you have no business being near him. The call is his and until he calls you, you should go back to your resting place or position. Sorry to say, but if he chooses to hang himself with a "made up rule" you are not there to be a part of it

If you partner calls you out to help him, you then give him what you have and if you feel he is applying a rule incorrectly, do your best to correct him (quietly). If your partner accepts your help and chooses to correct himself, let him handle it. If your partner refuses your input, step back and let him handle it.

Nothing good can come from you "sticking your nose" into the call if you are not asked for help. Further more, if the coach comes to you, just direct him back to your partner - it is not your call, it's your partner's call.

For judgement calls, I agree 100%. And as much as I respect what you say here 99.9% of the time - for rules misapplications I disagree with you 100%. Both the book and every clinic I've been to where this comes up tell you that it is the responsibility of BOTH umpires to ensure that the rules are applied correctly, and that protestable situations be avoided.

The coach has the right to protest the rule if he feels it is incorrect. That is when I will come to you and correct you and then insist you fix your mistake. Until that time, I will be far away from you. It is your job to com to our game with proper knowledge of the rules - if you can't do your job, why do you want me to intercede? I may as well take the game & a half fee and do the game myself!

Just saying!

To the OP: this thread introduces you to something of a generational conflict in umpiring, between the "old school" view that you should do your job and let your partner do his, and the "new school" view that the crew should work together and do whatever it takes to get the call right.

In HS baseball, too often umpires (and here I do NOT mean Ozzy) adopt the "old school" approach in order to insulate themselves from criticism or improvement. In my state, the new school is pretty firmly entrenched, and to move up and get tournament assignments umpires have to embrace it.

I understand your approach, and it may be true for some that if they can't do their job they don't want you interceding (although it's not true for me... if I somehow botch a rule, I want to know it and fix it right then). But I assure that (at least in my area and according to all the clinicians I've had that have addressed this), my ASSIGNOR and my ASSOCIATION wants you interceding if I or another umpire has botched one.

I've been umpiring for over 30 years so I must be an "old guy". However, I believe it is my job as an umpire to get the call right when it is said and done. Sometimes toes may be stepped on but generally not. On this play, if I had knowledge that the runner was past first base we would not be continuing until we got him set on the correct base. If I did not have knowledge but the parter said he was passed the base, we would not start until he was on 3rd.

I agree with everyone here. If my partner didn't know this basic award and did not want to change his call, he would be learning it real fast during the game. If he was embarassed because of statements made to the coach or took it personnaly then sometimes you just have to learn things the hard way. I would go out of my way to get him to understand how the final outcome will be though and let him make the call.

Some may say this is the radical approach which is why I held off in my original response. But, in the end even the old guys would probably take this same approach.

I used to believe that-- i.e. the proper procedure is to let an incorrect interpretation go unless a coaches protests. I've come to see it differently now that I've watched many games as an interested spectator while my son went from LL up into college ball. It gives a different perspective.

I now realize that for many reasons coaches are usually not in a position to protest. There may be travel limitations or tight schedules that don't easily permit replaying part of a game. Most teams have a pitching rotation which would be upset by replaying, and professional courtesy requires a coach to consider his opponent's situation as well. It seems that the higher the level of ball, the less likely that a coach can permit himself the luxury of protesting. High school ball seems to me to be in the toughest spot-- there's a wide dispersion in umpire competence, yet lots of impediments to the protest mechanism.

I've come to the personal conclusion that relying on protests to correct umpire error is wrong. It may be convenient and less stressful to the (usually) 2 man crew, but it is highly inconvenient to pretty much all other stakeholders at the game. If an umpire believes that a rules interpretation is incorrect, he has an obligation to the game participants to discuss it with his partner.

My opinion-- and yes, it can cause some friction!

And in Ohio, not just wrong but impossible. Protests are not permitted in HS contests, period. So we HAVE to get it right on the field.

Your advice is good, except I can see a coach coming to the PU asking if the lead runner got 2 bases, then shouldnt the BR?

Does the BU award the bases to both runners? If so, then the PU should stay out of it unless asked by partner. But if each umpire is watching a different runner, and each awarding bases, then I Could see the scenario of the PU getting involved....

This is the plate umpire's ball. Why isn't he killing the ball and awarding bases anyway? I know I'm noting the location of the runners at the TOT.

I wouldn't let this one go. No way. I'd go to my partner and we'd talk.

My thought exactly. In my experience, the umpire that kills the ball makes the awards. Plus, as PU and UIC, I'm overriding my BU if he makes an incorrect award.

Same here, I've always made all of the awards when I've killed the play.

That's not a duty of a PU/game UIC. You don't get veto power on base awards.

However, IMO, it is your award to make in the first place.

As a high school umpire, you have an ethical responsibility to ensure that rules are enforced properly. However, I am torn by the arguments here. No one wants a partner to make them look bad and few of us want to be that person. The HS rule book states "no umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it". That implies that one should not interject unless asked by the calling umpire or if the coach or captain believes a non-judgement issue is in question.

I encountered this last year during the playoffs. My partner ejected a player for wearing jewelry in the first inning. I rodeo clowned the upset team while my partner went about noting the ejection on his game card. The HC begged me to intercede, so I asked my partner if he warned the individual and he affirmed. I later found out that he had issued a 'warning' while checking helmets and bats pre-game. We all know that this doesn't count so let's not stray from the subject. Had I known the misapplication of the rule at the time I would have had to ask my partner to reconsider the ejection and attempt to put the genie back in the bottle. Yes, it would have been ugly but getting the call right is pretty important to our state association.

Sunny and 60 here today - finally a day without 35 mph winds! We should have a great afternoon DH on tap and I'm looking forward to abandoning multiple layers for a while. Enjoy your games.

If you didn't hear all the conversation, perhaps the 3rd base coach was telling your partner the B/R was half way to 2nd when the ball went dead or something like that. If you're not sure, go to your partner to re-affirm what you heard. A little off to the side chit chat can be a valuable experience. I've gone to my partner to make sure I saw what I thought I saw or didn't see. Don't be ashamed to ask for help when needed.

I think your partner went OOO. I worked a three day tournament at the same school three days in row. I had to tell one kid from the same team three days in row to remove the jewelry from around his neck while checking the dugout.

I wouldn't look to eject in this situation, especially in a playoff game, unless it was the last resort.

What difference would it make if the coach was telling his partner or his partner was telling the coach?:confused: The B/R being half way has nothing to do with the placement of the B/R.

First, it is the PU's call all the way on this. He declared that the ball went out of play and it is he who awards the runners, beginning with R1 and working his way backwards to the B/R. "You, score...You, 3rd base."

Second, His partner got the rule wrong, and he had every right to step in and place the runner at 3rd base where he belonged without any conference. He should just say, "No, that runner gets 3rd base." I agree with what Mike Crowder and mbyron said in their posts.

Someone may have said it, but as PU, I can see the whole field and where runners were at the time of the throw. As PU, I'm coming out and awarding bases. And if there was a question about it, best believe I'm going to my P and get some help if I have any doubt.

There are three sides to every story.

He said.

She said.

And, the truth.

What was said isn't the issue here.

It depends where B/R was at TOT.

Sometimes two heads aren't better than one.

Sometimes two umpires aren't enough.

Ask during the game.

Talk about it after the game.

I know how it works.

I am absolutely, definitely, positive, certain,

YOU

WILL

DISAGREE

WITH

ME.

The issue here, though, is that the BU though (and said, out loud, to the coach) that what "depended" was whether the runner was halfway or not.

And we all (hopefully) know better. (At least all of us except the one who claims to work high school yet didn't know you could steal on a strikeout).

Garsh, you talk purtier than a $20 whoore.:p

I think that when there is an improper rule interpretation or improper enforcement of a rule, you have to ask yourself, "What if this same play happens the next time I have this team?" Or "What if the same play happens tomorrow when two of my fellow umpires have this team?"

Hopefully you rule correctly the next time. But it is inconsistent with prior rulings. That not only reflects poorly on the individual umpires, the but entire officiating association.

One of our main responsibilities as umpires is to enforce the rules and prevent rule violations or invoke penalties for rule violations.

Here, we are violating our cardinal rule. We are violating the purpose of us being there.

We have to get rule interpretations correct. If the umpire making the incorrect ruling doesn't like that, so be it. We can all make improper interpretations, but shame on us if we neglect or reject a proper ruling.

I'm not trying to determine which umpire is right, and which is wrong.

PU states he could hear the conversation as he was brushing the plate.

PU only gives a vague bit of the conversation he states he heard.

PU never mentions where B/R was at time of throw.

Were BU, and coach shouting across the field?

Were BU, and coach having a civil discussion?

It appears this game took place in Alabama.

Garsh, you're good at pointing the finger. You might be purtier if you would just look in the mirror. Know wut I mean, Verne?

1 for 2.
 

I'm not buying into their conversation. The plate ump should walk away.

I agree w/ those who state PU has "must touch 1B" responsibility on BR's hit to RF in the OP and he should be making both awards. I say that because BU should have touch second responsibility on R1 and following play into 3rd base. PU should know if R1 reached 2nd base before F9 releases the ball toward 3B and should be checking BR "status" at 1B. Those 2 events are right in front of him.

If the base ump awards BR second base because the batter was not half way. I'm looking into the dugout, but I'm not coaching. If that BR stops at 2B and coach buys it and walks away, play ball. I'm going back to the plate as if the BR failed to reach 1B before TOT.

Now if that coach goes out for an explanation. I might offer my advice if asked, but I will not pass the mound to get involved in his discussion. BU is gonna have to ask me for my opinion. The goal is to get it right, without coaching either team.

So, you are going to intentionally allow your partner to misapply a rule? It is the PU's call all the way to begin with, and you are going to let the BU award 2nd base due to a cockamamie "half way to second base" misinterpretation?

To quote Tim C. "~sigh~"

Intentional allowance?
 

I'm going to mind my own business. He didn't tell me that. He told the coach that. He sold his call, hook line and sinker. I didn't say I would buy it though. The only thing worse than a bad call are two different calls on the same play.

It is a two base award. BR got two bases. I'm going to tell the coach to go to my partner and discuss it. If the coach doesn't know the rule and can't communicate it to my partner. I am not going to rescue the coach. A coach ever tried to use a previous call from the last game to justify why your calls are so bad. Reminds me of my playing days when umpires made the wrong decisions. I didn't run to my manager with the rule book. I saw at least a hAlf dozen misapplications of the rules made by veteran umpires.

If the partner ask me for my opinion, I'm gonna ask him if he saw the BR between the two bases and why he thinks one base, not two is the right award. Then I'm going to tell my partner to go back to that coach and explain his new ruling based on more information from me, his partner.

How about if the coach protests the game after his runner isn't awarded third base due to your partner's incompetence? Are you stepping in now? You gonna enjoy coming back to rework the game for FREE? Because that's what's gonna happen. I would much rather get the rule right on the field than come back and do it all over again without pay. We have a lot of coaches out here who have a fairly good working knowledge of the basic rules, and they pretty much know that the runner being "half way" to a base is totally irrelevant when it comes to awarding bases.

Communication lines are still open?
 

Coach, instead of protesting the game, why don't you go convince the BU to overturn his previous call. Are we going to play ball here or continue to whine. I'll go out there with you. Will you give it another try?

Wouldn't the PU be at 3B for the play on R1. Why would he have the touch of the BR at 1B? PU kills the ball, knows where R1 was, knows or finds out from BU where BR was and awards as appropriate.

Wouldn't work here. Protests are not allowed where I live.

Well, they are in most areas, including mine.

Mechanics?
 

You can beat me up here. I assumed a line drive hit placed runners on or near each advanced base with runners advancing on unexpected miscue, and no possible play at third base with the ball sailing into DBT. I also assumed BU had a great view of 2B and PU had better angle to 1B.

SA UMP, here is the OP again, since it has been awhile since we looked at it.

That's his yard stick
 

We agree half way to 2nd just doesn't cut it. Perhaps this vet is using a rule of thumb to measure their location from DBT back to TOT. I've seen runners cover 45 to 75 feet in that amount of time.

Where I diverge is why the vet stubbornly refuses to go with any additional info provided. If he is that sure of himself, I can't do a thing to overturn his call.

I think you might be mistaken in regards to "most areas". The number of states and local regions prohibiting protests has increased significantly in the past ten years. I don't know if it has reached a majority yet, but if not, it's headed that way.

It's not his call. As the plate umpire, I'm awarding bases since that's *my* job since I'm killing the ball. If he stops a runner at a base he shouldn't, I'm re-emphasizing the award and telling the runner to go to the next base.

Define most areas. I thought it was a decision by states that use FED rules to adopt or not adopt this rule.

Regardless of who's responsibility it is to award bases it is the entire crew's responsibility to make sure that the rules are applied properly. If I miss-apply a rule I want my partner(s) to inform me of my mistake immediately and I would do likewise.

How embarrassing it must be to have a protest filed because the officiating crew didn't know the rules and how to apply them correctly.

The last time we discussed this issue of protests in FEDland, only a few chimed in that protests weren't allowed in their state. Most replied that they are. If you have some kind of inside information to the contrary, why don't you share it with the rest of us? I have searched for public statistics concerning this, and have had no success.

Let's keep it to baseball and not politics please.

Any personal attacks or anything else inappropriate needs to be reported through the board tools.

Thanks,
Brad

Brad, the moderators have never cared if the guy from Aerosmith personally attacks people.

Well, right now I am the only moderator ... and we are working on getting a team of moderators together along with a revised discussion board.

Anyone interested can email me at [email protected] letting me know their interest.

Thanks,
Brad

I for one am glad that the board tools of which you speak will once again be utilized as designed.

+1

You need to define personal attack. It's happened to me many times, but the difference is I don't whine to the moderators or administrators about it. You've done it several times in the past yourself to me.

IMO, if you whine and cry to others, you don't need on the field calling the game. Perhaps the dugout would be more appropriate.

I'm sure you will take great exception to this post.............as usual.

Azimuth?

I have never seen your name until today, as I don't frequent the baseball boards ... but in every post I have seen of yours so far your tone is awful. When you say things like the above, you are going to rub people the wrong way.

I also wonder why you have a political statement in your signature. Doesn't really seem to serve any purpose other than to cause disputes that have nothing to do with officiating.

Perfect! Get the call right! That's officiating! :)

Gentlemen, gentlemen, let's get back to baseball, shall we? That's where the fun is!

Every post..................? Did you even read what was directed my way from some? For reasons unknown, I seem to be wrong about everything. Perhaps you should frequent the baseball forum more often. The tone here is totally anything unlike the other forums. It's awful for the most part.

So am I the only one? I've seen some of these guys ride a new poster right off the forum. They call them trolls, worthless, ignorant, etc. IMO, bob let some act like Teflon. Nothing sticks to them. Other posters don't say anything because they don't want to listen to a pack of hyenas. If you would notice, I have never engaged in such practices.

I'll be honest, I've had my share of run-ins with some, but I've never, ever once fired the first shot. I put everything out in the open. You won't get PM's or emails from me complaining. Now if you would like, I can sit back, and report every post I find demeaning. Would you like to listen to me whine? I think not.

I quit umpiring a couple of years ago, but I do like to keep up with different changes and mechanics.

As for my signature line, I can't stand anything remotely associated with what the Republicans have done to this country, in well, the last 11 1/2 years. I follow politics very closely these days because I care about my welfare and future. This country doesn't need another hand puppet like Bush.

Please tell me what you really, really want, and I will try with everything I've got to make this baseball forum better than it ever was before.

Now I've exposed myself for what it's worth. If you care to do the same, I'll be right here listening. Now I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, so it would be refreshing to know for once.

My case in point...................:(

Really... you considered this a personal attack? You have to have the thinnest skin out there. it was not.

Someone equated your name with Aerosmith... I think that's pretty understandable, right?

You changed someone else's post when quoting them. (Nevermind this is just wrong to do). I have no idea what you were referring to when you changed it to Azimuth... how does Azimuth relate to your name? I really don't know. Hence the question.

NOT a personal attack or even a harsh comment. Just a question.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder http://forum.officiating.com/images/...s/viewpost.gif
Azimuth?


Let's be reasonable here! :(

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler http://forum.officiating.com/images/...s/viewpost.gif
My case in point...................:(


There! Resolutiuon using reason!.

Greetings Well Met Fellow (and lady), Hail! as my mentor counseled us to greet one another!

Sure it wasn't, not in your world at least. I ran a spell-check through, and I inadvertently changed the spelling. You run a post through spell-check, many posters names will come up with a different spelling, Your attempt to nitpick is just that a nitpick.

This, Brad, is just one of the many examples of what I was mentioning in my earlier post. To set the record straight Crowder, you're one of the posters I was referring to when a newbie comes on board. You like to pile on when the chance arises. Kind of like right now. I'm sure you will disagreee...........as usual.

You might try doing something else with your free time. Let's see how thick your skin is. Stay condescending, Mike, because that what I perceive was the direction you were headed in when making your statement.

This isn't a personal attack or harsh statement, just the way I feel about such a post as yours.

PS~I can't even think of a valid reason you would bring it up in the first place.