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-   -   Does it behoove the B/R...? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/89979-does-behoove-b-r.html)

Lapopez Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 833552)
Once again, the know it all, see it all wizard who values knowone but his own opinion pops up. How many compiliations have you completely? Please enlighten us. We await your great wisdom. :eek:
No, we don't await that. Now that's what I call feeding a troll. Can you make your request in your own thread without gumming up this one?

Welpe Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:56pm
SA, are you referring to OBR or Fed?

Publius, I respect the work Carl has put in over the years not only compiling these interpretations but also in keeping them current. I don't think it is a stretch to say that J/R had fallen out of favor lately. Add to the fact that the Wendelstedt school is but one of two where PBUC selects their candidates so I am quite comfortable in relying upon them for the latest interpretations.

Matt Thu Mar 22, 2012 03:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump (Post 833568)
Both Fed and OBR.

Legal appeals can be made after the third out has been made that supersede the third out. In the OP, the defense claims that if the appeal is made at 1st base, the run does not score. Is it valid though?

How many runs haves scored in 59,000+ MLB games and over a million FED games when a batter failed to reach first base? My estimate is zero. Compare that to the number of runs that count as a result of scoring before a successful tagout is applied. I would say the defense has a valid argument.

Usually, BR reaches base successfully before he is tagged out trying to extend his progress while a play is being made on someone else. Not here in our OP. Usually the BR is thrown out at 1B before a runner is tagged on the baseline. Not here in our post. Neither happened in this OP. I can understand why the defense would appeal. Why am I bailing out a runner who failed to reach his base prior to being put out at first base, albeit, after the 3rd out?
Find a rule that allows for an appeal because a runner didn't reach a base, live or dead, 0, 1, 2, or 3 out.

MD Longhorn Thu Mar 22, 2012 07:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump (Post 833568)
59,000+ MLB games?
Off Topic ... but this is EXCEEDINGLY mathematically challenged (unless MLB started playing games in 1988...)

Welpe Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 833592)
Off Topic ... but this is EXCEEDINGLY mathematically challenged (unless MLB started playing games in 1988...)
Sounds about right of course I don't remember much about baseball prior to that year. :D

SA, BOO and illegal bats are covered in a different section. Out of context it looks incomplete but we weren't talking about illegal bats, BOO or even Tribbles.

MD Longhorn Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 833592)
Off Topic ... but this is EXCEEDINGLY mathematically challenged (unless MLB started playing games in 1988...)
Well... forgot to divide by 2... so ... 1960 or so.

cbfoulds Thu Mar 22, 2012 01:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump (Post 833543)
<SNIP>
You would not allow an appeal because you say the half inning has ended. Hmmm. A rule was made to define the end of a game. One does not exist to
define the end of an half inning. <SNIP>
Books not with me, and not something I'd need to have memorised, but I'm thinking you are wrong here.

If memory serves, there IS a Rule which specifies that the pitcher's warm-up time begins [and thus the prior half-inning ends] upon the recording of the final out of the half-inning; and there may also be one that specifies that appeals may be made only until all of the D has left the field at the end of the half-inning [or words generally to such effect(s)].

celebur Thu Mar 22, 2012 01:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump (Post 833568)
Why am I bailing out a runner who failed to reach his base prior to being put out at first base, albeit, after the 3rd out?
Why are you bailing out the fielder who chose to make the wrong play?

MD Longhorn Thu Mar 22, 2012 02:25pm
I'm not bailing anyone out nor failing to bail anyone out - that's not our job. The rulebook tells us what to do here, and it's clear that only appeals are allowed after a 3rd out; it's equally clear to any umpire who's done this for more than 4 days that merely throwing a ball to 1st base before BR gets there is NOT an appeal play.

This is WAY easier than you're making it.

LilLeaguer Thu Mar 22, 2012 04:08pm
Leaving fair territory
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbfoulds (Post 833654)
Books not with me, and not something I'd need to have memorised, but I'm thinking you are wrong here.

If memory serves, there IS a Rule which specifies that the pitcher's warm-up time begins [and thus the prior half-inning ends] upon the recording of the final out of the half-inning; and there may also be one that specifies that appeals may be made only until all of the D has left the field at the end of the half-inning [or words generally to such effect(s)].
Rule 7.10 If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field. … For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

DG Thu Mar 22, 2012 06:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 833495)
Here actual wording from the Wendelstedt Manual:




§8.4.1.b Appealable Plays

Appeals may only be made for runners either missing bases, or not legally tagging up from a base. If a third out is made during a play in which a runner never advances to a base he is forced to advance to (or the batter-runner never reaches first base), the defense may not then appeal that runner. This is a base never reached, not one they missed or one they did not legally tag up from; it cannot be appealed.
Interesting. What does Wendelstedt manual say about the umpire's responsibility to call outs for abandonment and desertion?

dash_riprock Thu Mar 22, 2012 07:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG (Post 833716)
Interesting. What does Wendelstedt manual say about the umpire's responsibility to call outs for abandonment and desertion?
Probably nothing. You'd look pretty foolish doing that when there are already three outs.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Mar 22, 2012 07:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapopez (Post 833128)
I remember this topic about 10 years ago but I don't remember the consensus.

R2, R3, two outs. Ground ball to F5. R3 crosses home. F5 tags out R2. B/R discontinues to first. Can the defense appeal at first for a "fourth" out? In other words, does it behoove the offense for the B/R to continue to first after the third out?

This thread has become too long for me to keep track of where it stands. But per NFHS Rules: No Fourth Out can be had in this situation.

R2-39 says: "Time at bat is the period beginning when a batter first enters the batter's box and continuing until he is put out or becomes a runner. A batter is not charged in the records with a time at bat when he makes a *sacrifice hit, is hit by a pitched ball, is awarded a base on balls, is replaced before being charged with two strikes, is replaced after being charged with two strikes and the *substitute does not strike out, or when he advances to first base because of obstruction by a fielder."

R2-S7-A3: "A batter-runner is a player who has finished a time at bat until he is put out or until playing action ends."

This means that the B/R was forced to run to 1B, his At-Bat ended with the 3rd out because the 3rd out also ends playing action for the inning; and since the inning ended before the B/R aquired 1B, no Base Running Infraction could have happened.

This is the same ruling the Wendelstedt gives for MLB Rules.

MTD, Sr.

Welpe Thu Mar 22, 2012 09:40pm
His question has been answered affirmatively, you just don't seem to like the answer.

I'm sensing a new rising fast ball thread is in the works here.

johnnyg08 Thu Mar 22, 2012 09:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump (Post 833742)
My apologies for being so math challenged! I googled or yahooed how many games have been played in MLB. I knew I should not have done it. One reply was over 597,000 and another was over 300-something thousand. Then I remembered what the professor did wrong and thought I was safe with 59,000plus.

That doesn't negate the fact that Pre-1940 WWII, to 1964, to 1988, to 2012; not one run, ZERO MLB people have scored on a succesful defensive time-play at first base. Real umpires just won't allow it.
How many times could it have happened? That would be my question.

The obvious play is on the batter runner at 1B, that's why we probably haven't seen it very often.


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