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-   -   Does the run score? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/89294-does-run-score.html)

ozzy6900 Tue Feb 21, 2012 02:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 826054)
The following was discussed at our LOA's umpires' meeting last night.

NFHS Rules (but would like to know the answer for NCAA and MLB too):

Play: R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B; 0 outs; 2 strikes on the Batter/B3. R1 breaks for HP and R2 breaks for 2B as F1 delivers the Pitch to B3. B3 swings and misses for Strike 3 and F2 catches the pitch cleanly for Out #1. B3's swing causes him to step over HP. F2 catches the pitch cleanly and throws to 2B. The PU signals a Delayed DB, verbalizes the Interference by B3. F2's throw to F6 at 2B is in time for F6 to tag R2 for the Out #2 while R1 scores from 3B.
First of all, Mark that would be R3 & R1 as we all despise the old FED runner identification. Please use the MLB and more accepted designation of R1=1st base, R2= 2nd base, R3= 3rd base.

That said, if F2 got the throw to F6 in time to tag R1 out, then there was no interference. The run scores.

I also think that F2 should have pumped to 2nd then nailed R3 coming into home.

UmpTTS43 Tue Feb 21, 2012 03:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) (Post 826312)
UmpTT,

I'm killing it as soon as the F2 aborts his initial attempt to retire R2 as a result of the interference. Under all codes.

Batter out, runners return.

JM
Under OBR an aborted throw is not considered "an initial throw". If F2's initial throw retires a runner, even after an aborted attempt, the interference is disregarded as long as the batter is "the batter" and not a "retired batter".

UmpTTS43 Tue Feb 21, 2012 04:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 826361)
First of all, Mark that would be R3 & R1 as we all despise the old FED runner identification. Please use the MLB and more accepted designation of R1=1st base, R2= 2nd base, R3= 3rd base.

That said, if F2 got the throw to F6 in time to tag R1 out, then there was no interference. The run scores.

I also think that F2 should have pumped to 2nd then nailed R3 coming into home.
True if INT was by the batter. We are talking about a retired batter, in which case you would be wrong. Again 7.09e

There is a distict difference between batter interference and interferece by a retired batter. Different rules, different interpretations. It really isn't that difficult.

MD Longhorn Tue Feb 21, 2012 04:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 826390)
True if INT was by the batter. We are talking about a retired batter, in which case you would be wrong. Again 7.09e

There is a distict difference between batter interference and interferece by a retired batter. Different rules, different interpretations.
As there should be... in case one, ruling the batter out is an appropriate penalty... in case to, batter is already out and would be NO penalty.
Quote:
It really isn't that difficult.
Truly. Truly stunned at the big names here not noticing the most important part of the equation.

johnnyg08 Tue Feb 21, 2012 04:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) (Post 826312)
UmpTT,

I'm killing it as soon as the F2 aborts his initial attempt to retire R2 as a result of the interference. Under all codes.

Batter out, runners return.

JM
Under TT's interpretation of 7.09e, that's what you have to do.

So...just so I'm clear...this is true under all codes on a retired batter who interferes w/ a F2 who's attempted to put out a stealing runner?

jicecone Tue Feb 21, 2012 07:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08 (Post 826393)
Under TT's interpretation of 7.09e, that's what you have to do.

So...just so I'm clear...this is true under all codes on a retired batter who interferes w/ a F2 who's attempted to put out a stealing runner?
No under Fed you could possibly end up with batter out and both runners returning. If you think the catcher has an oppurtunity to get someone out and doesn't, kill the play and call out the runner from third.

In the situation brpught up for this thread, killing the play or letting the attempt and putout proceed juat doesn't matter. Either way the Retired batter is out, R1, or R2 for this thread is also out just because that is where the attempt was made, and return the runner from 3rd,(whatever designation were using).

in NCAA/OBR one of the runners is out no matter what.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 826361)
First of all, Mark that would be R3 & R1 as we all despise the old FED runner identification. Please use the MLB and more accepted designation of R1=1st base, R2= 2nd base, R3= 3rd base.

That said, if F2 got the throw to F6 in time to tag R1 out, then there was no interference. The run scores.

I also think that F2 should have pumped to 2nd then nailed R3 coming into home.

Ozzy:

My OP was for a game played under NFHS Rules so it was very appropriate for me to use NFHS nomenclature. I know I also asked, as a matter of information only, rulings using NCAA and MLB rules, so get over yourself. I rarely umpire using NCAA or MLB rules so if I ask for a NFHS ruling I will use NFHS nomenclature.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:59pm
I would like to thank everybody who has participated in the thread, but in reading the posts, I find some people have not addressed the exact play that I gave in my OP and that has muddied the waters somewhat.

That is, B3's interference did not prevent F2 from throwing R2 out at 2B as R2 attempted to steal 2B while R1 was attempting to steal HP. Does R1's run count? Many people have talked about F2 failing to throw out R2, which is addressed in both the NFHS Delayed Dead Ball Table and Casebook Play 8.4.2 Situation B.

MTD, Sr.

ODJ Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:17am
Retired batter is out on strikes. Immediate dead ball on his interference. Call a runner out, return the other. Calling R1(2) out is easiest, most understandable to explain.

Key is the retired batter.

jicecone Wed Feb 22, 2012 09:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ODJ (Post 826466)
Retired batter is out on strikes. Immediate dead ball on his interference. Call a runner out, return the other. Calling R1(2) out is easiest, most understandable to explain.

Key is the retired batter.
Not for this situation for Fed. The runner played on at second is the one that is out. R1 returns TOP.

NCAA and OBR , it works.

Umpmazza Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 826330)
BRD 2012 Section 275 pg 176, "Int by Batter w/ Catcher:Throw to Base:Batter Retired". NFHS: In summary if the if the ump believes the runner would have been out without the interference, the ump will declare the runner being played on, out. Others return TOP. If umpires judges no chance on any runner, Runners return TOP.

NCAA/OBR: The ump will call out another runner "whom he judges the defense would have played".

I would, and have taken the runner from third. Others return TOP.

NCAA/OBR you always get two. NFHS not necessarilly, but definetly for the Sit. presented.

this book your reading is wrong...

there is no judgment on this play.. If interference is called the batter is always out... ( unless the catchers initial throw retires a runner) .. if the trow retires the runner, interference is disregarded.. if the runner is safe the batter is out. runners return to there base occupied at TOP. this is not judgment on which runner is out...

Umpmazza Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 826392)
As there should be... in case one, ruling the batter out is an appropriate penalty... in case to, batter is already out and would be NO penalty.
Truly. Truly stunned at the big names here not noticing the most important part of the equation.
on this play if the batter strikes out, and there is less than 2 outs... the runner is also out.... pretty simple here.

But there is a penalty for interference..

MD Longhorn Wed Feb 22, 2012 01:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umpmazza (Post 826548)
this book your reading is wrong...

there is no judgment on this play.. If interference is called the batter is always out...
You're missing the point... the batter is ALREADY out. BEFORE the interference. the book he's reading is RIGHT - and tells you who to call out IN ADDITION TO the batter.

MD Longhorn Wed Feb 22, 2012 01:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umpmazza (Post 826551)
But there is a penalty for interference..
Of course there is. But calling the batter out (again) is no penalty. The penalty for a retired batter interfering is the runner being called out as well.

jicecone Wed Feb 22, 2012 05:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umpmazza (Post 826548)
this book your reading is wrong...

there is no judgment on this play.. If interference is called the batter is always out... ( unless the catchers initial throw retires a runner) .. if the trow retires the runner, interference is disregarded.. if the runner is safe the batter is out. runners return to there base occupied at TOP. this is not judgment on which runner is out...
I will defer to mbcrowder's statements.


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