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  #91 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 09:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 View Post
No crow, no apology.

I have a hard time believing that this mechanic is no longer wanted at the upper levels of MiLB. While I am out of town I will get the correct answer.
No TV? You can see the non-verbalization in use by MLB, NCAA and MiLB guys on cable almost every day. Around here we get MiLB games on Versus, one of the ESPN channels, and MLBTV.

I figured you wouldn't admit it. It is so easy to insult fellow umpires and find fault with their work. When it turns out that they are doing what is correct, you pretend that it isn't so. Enjoy the crow, there's a heap there for you.
  #92 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 09:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
Really. You said you like to call the out. Good for you.
Not sure why I try... maybe I'll stop.

For about the fourth time... no - I did NOT say that. Your propensity for putting words into other peoples mouths might work in your regular life - but it's rather stupid on line, don't you think, considering that the words the other person said are right there for everyone to read.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 09:31am
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Originally Posted by TussAgee11 View Post
And a dropped third strike is not always the same is not a can of corn or a runner scoring at home without a play. It can often be a very close decision.
And many times it is not. You wanted to lump them all into one. I showed you how that is not the case.

Quote:
F2 fields out of the dirt and fires to 2nd for a play on R1 who is stealing with 2 outs.

How do I know that you aren't signaling "that's nothing" on a potential interference? You better be coming out of your shoes with a no catch here so everyone knows the status of R1, including me. Otherwise I'm going to watch the play and then look back at you to know what I have to do.
Nah, if you can't see my outstretched arems and lack of an out call then I will be making your calls for you anyway. If the MLB and NCAA guys do it, why contend that you need more to do your job.

Quote:
Why should a batter or catcher have to turn their attention away from the action so you can render a decision? On a catch/no catch in the outfield, so you not verbalize either? All runners look at Mr. Strybel now, its his time to shine.
First question: Ask the MiLB, MLB and NCAA instructors and umpires. I have an 11 year old who plays and he knows to run to first on strike three swings. So do his coaches.

Second question: No. if you werbalize all of your outfield catches, good for you. I leave cans of corn alone. In fact, many of those calls don't even result in the oustretched arm out call anymore. This mechanic too is on display at MLB and NCAA ball parks across the nation.

Shining. Thanks.

Quote:
Your favorite past time, twisting up my words. I've asked you not to do it twice now. Seriously. Really.
I am hardly twisting your words. You write in absolutes. When shown that you are mistaken, you insult or pretend that the conflicting ruling doesn't apply to you. I have never once said that my way is better than yours. I find that the best umpires in the world don't verbalize the D3K any more and that's pretty good company to keep. If they want Rookie and Single A guys to do it and your ambition is to join those ranks, go for it. Call it the way you want but stop insulting those who disagree.

Quote:
As I said earlier, a dropped third strike out of the dirt is alot closer than a can of corn or a guy who is out by 15 steps.
Come on, you wrote another absolute and I showed you that there are plenty of times when we don't verbalize the call. Now you want to say I twisted your words. Sad.

Quote:
At no other point in the entire game do we not verbalize the status of a close play or decision. Not doing it here is playing with fire, plain and simple. By saying "no catch" you aren't telling the runner to run to 1st, you are telling him your decision on whether or not the pitch was caught in flight. He needs to know that so he knows whether or not he can advance to first base or not.
Ugggh. I see plenty of bangers in the bigs and collegiate ball where the call is physical only. The call at first with the dramatic pump across the body is a fine example. Plenty of outs on second base steals are done the same way. Are you saying that they don't know what to do because they didn't hear the call? Really? Really?

"They believe it is the player's responsibility to know the status of play."
  #94 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 09:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Not sure why I try... maybe I'll stop.

For about the fourth time... no - I did NOT say that. Your propensity for putting words into other peoples mouths might work in your regular life - but it's rather stupid on line, don't you think, considering that the words the other person said are right there for everyone to read.
from mbcrowder post #46 of this thread:

What in the world would be wrong with simply using the word OUT when we have an out... just like every other time that we have an OUT. For some reason, those loftier than me think it's bad form to tell the batter they are out when they are, indeed, out.

The EASY way to fix this messy nonsense with umpires making signals to people that can't see them (Strybel ... why would signalling safe help any player), or having different calls (catch, no catch, NO NO, "ball on the ground!" (Really!?!?!)) etc is to SIMPLY call batters that are out on a caught 3rd strike OUT! If you don't say OUT, they are not out. Easy. Catcher's batters, etc can hear you say OUT, and can react if you don't. (PS - this would also help in the batter running to first to confuse matters with less than 2 outs and a runner on first - saying OUT clearly clears up this sitch too).


You are right, it is difficult to pretend you didn't write something when the words are right there for everyone to read. Thanks for illustrating the point. I feel no need to put words in your mouth.
  #95 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 10:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
All along I have maintained that there is no need to verbally alert a batter to the dropped strike. We are not coaches.
Calling the out on the batter alerts the catcher - verbally - that he does not need to throw because you judged the pitch was caught. How is that different from verbally alerting the batter that he is entitled to run because you judged the pitch was not caught?
  #96 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 10:24am
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Cool

As a point of information, I just heard back from a AAA umpire I know who said he had not heard any MiLB supervisor say not to use a verbal on the "no catch", and that it is his practice to verbalize "no catch" in situations that are not obvious.

In accordance with "...the guidelines of the best training academy for umpires, ...".

JM
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 12:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
from mbcrowder post #46 of this thread:

What in the world would be wrong with simply using the word OUT when we have an out... just like every other time that we have an OUT. For some reason, those loftier than me think it's bad form to tell the batter they are out when they are, indeed, out.

The EASY way to fix this messy nonsense with umpires making signals to people that can't see them (Strybel ... why would signalling safe help any player), or having different calls (catch, no catch, NO NO, "ball on the ground!" (Really!?!?!)) etc is to SIMPLY call batters that are out on a caught 3rd strike OUT! If you don't say OUT, they are not out. Easy. Catcher's batters, etc can hear you say OUT, and can react if you don't. (PS - this would also help in the batter running to first to confuse matters with less than 2 outs and a runner on first - saying OUT clearly clears up this sitch too).


You are right, it is difficult to pretend you didn't write something when the words are right there for everyone to read. Thanks for illustrating the point. I feel no need to put words in your mouth.
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Thanks.

I did NOT state that I DO this ... I stated that the powers that be (the people that are telling us the proper and improper mechanics in situations like this) should CHANGE their direction and instead have us actually say OUT when the player is OUT. I stated (at least 4 times) that I currently do what we are told, but that changing what we are told to do would EASILY clear up this admittedly muddy scenario. If that can't penetrate your thick skull, I don't know what can.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 12:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Thanks.

I did NOT state that I DO this ... I stated that the powers that be (the people that are telling us the proper and improper mechanics in situations like this) should CHANGE their direction and instead have us actually say OUT when the player is OUT. I stated (at least 4 times) that I currently do what we are told, but that changing what we are told to do would EASILY clear up this admittedly muddy scenario. If that can't penetrate your thick skull, I don't know what can.
Try decaf, please.

From now on, I will assume that when you offer advice on a mechanic it is not something you do, but rather what you believe should be done. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
  #99 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 12:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
As a point of information, I just heard back from a AAA umpire I know who said he had not heard any MiLB supervisor say not to use a verbal on the "no catch", and that it is his practice to verbalize "no catch" in situations that are not obvious.

In accordance with "...the guidelines of the best training academy for umpires, ...".

JM
I hope you had a chance to watch the AAA National Championship series last week. Columbus defended last year's trophy by beating Omaha in a great match up. Versus carried much of it. The D3K happened a few times. No verbalization. Maybe the directive hasn't filtered down yet to those who weren't assigned the playoffs. A bunch of the CWS guys are former AAA and JEA graduates. They used the point effectively, after stepping back and away. One even had his mask off for the call. That's moving! This past CWS was one of the most professionally umpired series I have ever seen. Hope all is well.
  #100 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 01:04pm
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The number of posts in this thread likely exceeds the number of applicable calls in MLB this season :-).

I dunno...from the perspective of just being a fan, it would seem a verbal "no catch" lets both the B/R and F2 know they need to do something without having to turn around and look for PU's pantomime.
  #101 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 01:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Thanks.

I did NOT state that I DO this ... I stated that the powers that be (the people that are telling us the proper and improper mechanics in situations like this) should CHANGE their direction and instead have us actually say OUT when the player is OUT. I stated (at least 4 times) that I currently do what we are told, but that changing what we are told to do would EASILY clear up this admittedly muddy scenario. If that can't penetrate your thick skull, I don't know what can.
Mike,

To me, and I suspect most of the participants on this thread, it was clear that you were not stating that you do this nor recommending that others do it; you were simply questioning why the "powers that be" do not recommend doing so. Because that's what you actually said in your posts.

To me, that's a reasonable question.

My impression, from reading MikeS's posts on this board (as well as other contexts) is that Mike is not what one would call a "careful reader".

He regularly mis-characterizes what other posters have written. I don't believe he does so intentionally, but rather due to "sloppy reading" and an analytic approach that favors eisegesis over exegesis. Regardless, if I were you, I wouldn't let myself be bothered by it.

In person, he's actually a pretty good guy and, from what I've seen, calls a good game.

In terms of "reading recommendations", it's my opinion that he would benefit from a careful read of "Verbal Judo", and fear that he may have 'over-focused" on the "argument" parts of Ms. McMeniman's work, while "glossing over" the sections on inquiry and analysis. That, of course, is just my impression.

JM
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 01:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStrybel View Post
I hope you had a chance to watch the AAA National Championship series last week. Columbus defended last year's trophy by beating Omaha in a great match up. Versus carried much of it. The D3K happened a few times. No verbalization. Maybe the directive hasn't filtered down yet to those who weren't assigned the playoffs. A bunch of the CWS guys are former AAA and JEA graduates. They used the point effectively, after stepping back and away. One even had his mask off for the call. That's moving! This past CWS was one of the most professionally umpired series I have ever seen. Hope all is well.
Mike,

I did happen to catch a little bit of it, but I didn't watch much of it.

From watching the broadcast, since the PU was not "live mic'd" during playing action, how on earth could you possibly know whether or not he verbalized for the benefit of the batter & catcher?

Other than the sucky weather, the Bears apparently having "hit their peak" in the 1st game of the season, and my final two (fall ball) games of the season getting cancelled due to rain, pretty well. I mean, I could complain, but who'd GAS?

How are you enjoying the youth football experience? Back in my coaching days, I did some coaching up in the L'ville program. Some of the fondest memories of my coaching career. If you've got a couple of minutes to waste, here's a little highlight video of my younger son I put together awhile back from when he was a 7th grader.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuuVul8tGH4

JM
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Last edited by UmpJM; Fri Sep 30, 2011 at 01:41pm.
  #103 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 30, 2011, 01:53pm
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John,
I have never insulted you, privately or on this site. In fact, I have only had good things to say about you to people I umpire with. I am saddened by your recent post.

I have long maintained that one should do whatever their teams, partners, assignors, associations mandate. I think it absurd to verbalize every out call, as mbcrowder suggested. I provided a number of examples where we don't. Further, I do not advocate things that I don't do. If it is sloppy reading to take issue with his opinion as a fix to the situation, so be it. I am content with my education.

The games I saw allowed for the umpire to be heard well. AAA umpires are loud. In a couple instances the exchange between batter and umpire was even audible. The fact that D3Ks were made with an adamant "Swing" or "Yes, he did" prefaced by a right hand point at the plate that was held while stepping back and away, illustrated the mechanic perfectly.
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