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-   -   Baseball question from a football/basketball ref. (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/77407-baseball-question-football-basketball-ref.html)

stir22 Tue Aug 09, 2011 01:14pm

Baseball question from a football/basketball ref.
 
Hello, my baseball brethren!!!

Was at the ballpark last night watching my local minor league baseball team. Here's the scenario- Home up 4-0, 7th inning, very smooth game. Home team starting pitcher was pitching a masterful game, one hitter at that point. Anyway, one of his pitches got away from him, and went a few inches behind the batter. Clearly did not hit the batter- nothing untoward had happened in the game. The homeplate ump awarded the batter first base. The batter actually argued just a bit, saying the pitch didn't hit him, and he want to stay in the box. The ump insisted he take first base. My question is, is first base awarded automatically for pitches that go behind the batter, regardless of the scenario?

Thanks!!!

bob jenkins Tue Aug 09, 2011 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stir22 (Post 779241)
Hello, my baseball brethren!!!

Was at the ballpark last night watching my local minor league baseball team. Here's the scenario- Home up 4-0, 7th inning, very smooth game. Home team starting pitcher was pitching a masterful game, one hitter at that point. Anyway, one of his pitches got away from him, and went a few inches behind the batter. Clearly did not hit the batter- nothing untoward had happened in the game. The homeplate ump awarded the batter first base. The batter actually argued just a bit, saying the pitch didn't hit him, and he want to stay in the box. The ump insisted he take first base. My question is, is first base awarded automatically for pitches that go behind the batter, regardless of the scenario?

Thanks!!!

No.

The umpire must have judged it hit him (or it was ball 4).

stir22 Tue Aug 09, 2011 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 779242)
No.

The umpire must have judged it hit him (or it was ball 4).

Many thanks!!!

MrUmpire Tue Aug 09, 2011 01:30pm

It is not uncommon for a pitch to barely touch the uniform and the batter not feel it or wishes to get a chance to swing the bat. Any touch of the person or uniform is a HBP.

gordon30307 Wed Aug 10, 2011 07:46am

I was doing some college wood bat this summer and the the count was 3 and 0. The batter stepped out of the box and asked me to open up the zone. I said OK. Next pitch was high and I called it a strike. The 3 and 1 pitch was higher and I call ball 4. He looks at me and I tell him sorry no way that I can call that a strike. A first for me a batter complaining about balls.:D

RogersUmp Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:36pm

Gordon, don't tell his coach.

kylejt Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:58pm

Here's my question for a basketball ref:

Why do you let coaches yell at you from point blank range? On a baseball field, I'd eject those same coaches within the first few minutes of most basketball games. The first "you" that came flying out of their mouths would get them a trip to the showers, yet BB guys take it all game long.

Why?

mbyron Wed Aug 24, 2011 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783410)
Here's my question for a basketball ref:

Why do you let coaches yell at you from point blank range?

It's different in HS and NCAA. For HS, we don't take it: it's a technical foul for the first offense, and ejection for the second.

I don't work NCAA, but I gather that the powers that be want head coaches, especially in televised D1 games, to remain on the floor. So officials have to listen to them. Perhaps that's what you're thinking of?

JRutledge Wed Aug 24, 2011 07:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783410)
Here's my question for a basketball ref:

Why do you let coaches yell at you from point blank range? On a baseball field, I'd eject those same coaches within the first few minutes of most basketball games. The first "you" that came flying out of their mouths would get them a trip to the showers, yet BB guys take it all game long.

Why?

Basketball is a much more confined area so the conversations are going to be much closer. Also we can say things to them that we would have to yell at a coach on a baseball field. And if you think basketball officials are just taking crap from coaches, you have not heard enough basketball officials’ stories about coaches. I can tell you these are sometimes much more colorful than I ever hear from baseball umpires. Bottom line this is a different sport with different standards. If you are throwing guys out of every basketball game you will not be around very long. It is really that simple.

Peace

APG Wed Aug 24, 2011 07:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783410)
Here's my question for a basketball ref:

Why do you let coaches yell at you from point blank range? On a baseball field, I'd eject those same coaches within the first few minutes of most basketball games. The first "you" that came flying out of their mouths would get them a trip to the showers, yet BB guys take it all game long.

Why?

Most of the time, coaches aren't yelling at you point blank. If a coach is truly yelling at you point blank, you're going to be T'd up quick (save for maybe NCAA D-I...HS/Pro allow a lot less crap from their coaches IMO)...which is a tool we have unlike baseball which is all or nothing. And most of the time, coach's aren't getting personal...there are just a lot more plays in a basketball game meaning a lot more plays that are close meaning more questions.

kylejt Wed Aug 24, 2011 09:30pm

Maybe it's just the local HS guys. Honestly, nobody, NOBODY would yell at me like these guys get away with. If you wouldn't take in line at the Costco, why would allow it when you're supposed be in charge?

I'd be a lousey BB ref becuase there wouldn't be local coach after 10 minutes on most games.

JRutledge Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783512)
Maybe it's just the local HS guys. Honestly, nobody, NOBODY would yell at me like these guys get away with. If you wouldn't take in line at the Costco, why would allow it when you're supposed be in charge?

I'd be a lousey BB ref becuase there wouldn't be local coach after 10 minutes on most games.

Not many here can speak for your local guys and what they tolerate or should tolerate. I will just say that guys that take the baseball mentality to other sports often end up not doing very well in basketball or football for that matter in my experience. And you said something interesting. You said we are supposed to be in charge. That is true, but that cannot be what you reflect on the basketball court. Your presence and your behavior are supposed to show you are in charge, not you dumping someone. I will put it this way, as a basketball official you have to learn how to tell someone to STFU rather than actually using those words. No big deal, but it is just a different reality than baseball that is really all.

Peace

kylejt Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:10pm

I don't take a sport official, of any sport, mentality with me. If you have something to say, say it in a reasonable fashion. I'm just a guy, doin' a job. Don't do anything to me that you wouldn't expect in return. And don't talk to me on a baseball diamond in a way that you wouldn't in a grocery store.

And I'm not the ejecting sort in baseball. Once every three or four years. I just don't let it get to that point. Which is why it mystifies me that other officials allow themselves to be hollered at for the duration of a game.

Actually, I enjoy watching basketball with my baseball pals. They always look to me when some loudmouth coach starts at it. I'll make an ejection motion from the bleachers, just for a laugh. And usually within the first two minutes of a game.

Honestly zebras, it's time to man up.

Raymond Thu Aug 25, 2011 07:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783522)
...
Honestly zebras, it's time to man up.

What level of basketball are you used to watching and where? Definitely not anywhere near where I watch.

David B Thu Aug 25, 2011 08:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783522)
I don't take a sport official, of any sport, mentality with me. If you have something to say, say it in a reasonable fashion. I'm just a guy, doin' a job. Don't do anything to me that you wouldn't expect in return. And don't talk to me on a baseball diamond in a way that you wouldn't in a grocery store.

And I'm not the ejecting sort in baseball. Once every three or four years. I just don't let it get to that point. Which is why it mystifies me that other officials allow themselves to be hollered at for the duration of a game.

Actually, I enjoy watching basketball with my baseball pals. They always look to me when some loudmouth coach starts at it. I'll make an ejection motion from the bleachers, just for a laugh. And usually within the first two minutes of a game.

Honestly zebras, it's time to man up.

Must be some poor coaching that you are used to watching. In our area, coaches most of the time don't yell at officials, they are simply "begging" for a call to go their way.

If a coach does start "yelling", then we have several options on how to deal with them, whereas in baseball, your hands are tied, you only have one option.

Many things have helped basketball, mainly the "coaching box" rules which require the coach to stay confined etc.,

Thanks
David

JRutledge Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783522)
Honestly zebras, it's time to man up.

This is my point when I say "baseball mentality." You are so worried about your ego or your manhood that you think that officials are taking crap when they clearly are not. And watching big time college basketball, I can say with certainty that the Valentines, Hightowers, Burrs and O'Neils of the world are afraid of coaches saying something to them. Or better yet are afraid to penalize a coach for their behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 783567)
What level of basketball are you used to watching and where? Definitely not anywhere near where I watch.

Agreed.

Peace

kylejt Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:16am

HS Varsity, JC and D1.

You'll see coaches just rail at officials from either four feet away, or across the court.

It's not an ego thing, just common courtesy. The level of #@$ taken in other sports is far beyond that of what we deem acceptable on the diamond. I mean, we dump on the first blathering of "...YOU....", whereas other officials just act like they don't even hear it. I just find it odd.

Maybe it's a baseball thing, and we've got it all wrong. You see far more ejections in baseball than all other sports. So why is that?

BigUmp56 Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783600)



Maybe it's a baseball thing, and we've got it all wrong. You see far more ejections in baseball than all other sports. So why is that?

Because baseball has always been considered "a gentlemens game"?

Tim.

JRutledge Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783600)
HS Varsity, JC and D1.

You'll see coaches just rail at officials from either four feet away, or across the court.

I work a lot of games and I watch more games and many in person. Sorry, I see nothing different from a basketball point of view that I do not see in baseball as it relates to complaining. More coaches in baseball are yelling from 100 feet away than I ever get in basketball games. And if they are yelling from far away, it usually is addressed. Just because they are not throwing them out (which is your baseball mentality to handed the situation and you admitted to) does not mean they are not handing the situation in another way. Basketball officials do not need to throw people out to accomplish what they want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783600)
It's not an ego thing, just common courtesy. The level of #@$ taken in other sports is far beyond that of what we deem acceptable on the diamond. I mean, we dump on the first blathering of "...YOU....", whereas other officials just act like they don't even hear it. I just find it odd.


And which is why I said that mentality often does not survive in other sports. Because to me it is a cop out to always eject someone. If you cannot think of something to say or to take over the discussion, then that says a lot. Even in baseball I know how to control the discussion with a coach and get them to do what I want without ejecting them. Also most baseball discussions take place with play stopped. Basketball play is going on continuously. Again, different sport different expectations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783600)
Maybe it's a baseball thing, and we've got it all wrong. You see far more ejections in baseball than all other sports. So why is that?

Yes and baseball umpires are seen to be the cause of many of those situations than in other sports. Not to say basketball does not have some "confrontational" people from a public perception standpoint. But if you listen to the "public" and many ejections that take place, it is seen as the umpire overreacted. At least many confrontations with basketball officials are often seen as justified or not a shock when players or coaches are penalized.

Peace

MD Longhorn Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:33am

This was alluded to, but not focused on.

The main reason there is such a difference here is that in basketball there is a known intermediate step between nothing and ejection - the technical foul. An actual penalty that hurts the team, but keeps the coach in the game. In baseball and softball, at best you have the warning, which really holds nothing. In basketball, a coach might risk the intermediate step on purpose to rile up his team - the technical foul is PART OF the game.

I can't tell you how often I've wished for a T in baseball or softball.

Eastshire Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783600)
Maybe it's a baseball thing, and we've got it all wrong. You see far more ejections in baseball than all other sports. So why is that?

Baseball lacks an effective intermediate penalty. Football has the 15 yard USB. Basketball has the technical foul. Soccer has the caution. What does baseball have? Nothing short of ejection.

kylejt Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 783604)
I can't tell you how often I've wished for a T in baseball or softball.

That would be awsome!

You'd actually bring out a tee, and let a batter hit off of it. That would be a great penalty.

JRutledge Thu Aug 25, 2011 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 783612)
Baseball lacks an effective intermediate penalty. Football has the 15 yard USB. Basketball has the technical foul. Soccer has the caution. What does baseball have? Nothing short of ejection.

Well in HS you can restrict a coach to the dugout and if an assistant is ejected the head coach is also responsible and goes to the dugout. Not the case at the other levels, but I would be OK with that kind of penalty at other levels.

Peace

David B Fri Aug 26, 2011 07:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt (Post 783619)
That would be awsome!

You'd actually bring out a tee, and let a batter hit off of it. That would be a great penalty.

Lol,not a bad idea. Defensive coach complains, bring out the T.

But what do you do when the offense complains?

Thanks
David

Eastshire Fri Aug 26, 2011 08:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B (Post 783768)
Lol,not a bad idea. Defensive coach complains, bring out the T.

But what do you do when the offense complains?

Thanks
David

The problem with coming up with a "T" for baseball is there is no way to equally effect both teams with one action. My pie in the sky idea would be to penalize the offensive team by adding an out and penalize the defensive team by awarding the current batter first base and advancing any runner forced as necessary.


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