"4th Out" Appeal Procedure

[nafxos]

I'm a first-year ump and had this situation come up the other night. I was the only ump working a 12-year-old summer ball game on a 60-foot diamond. 1 out, runners on second and third. Batter flies out to LF for the 2nd out. R3 tags up (properly) and scores. On the throw home, R2 tries to advance to third and is tagged out, ending the inning. R3 clearly scored before R2 was tagged out, so there is no doubt that the run will count, but the defensive team then decides to appeal that R3 left too early (which would be the so-called "4th out" of the inning, and would take the run off the board).

My question is what is the proper appeal procedure in this situation? The defensive coach asked me if the ball was still in play. My initial reaction was "no", because the inning was over. But I'm not sure that's technically correct. I knew I was going to rule R3 safe anyway, so I allowed them to go through the motions of having the pitcher take the rubber (with no batter, because there were already 3 outs), step off, and through to 3rd for the appeal. But I'm wondering how it's supposed to work, in case it ever comes up again (and especially in a case where R3 really did leave early). Is the ball still "in play" after the 3rd out? Could any defensive player simply have called for the ball and stepped on 3rd to appeal? At what point would they lose their right to appeal - once the entire team has left the field?

I remember this being discussed briefly in my certification class, but not in this detail. Has anybody else seen this in "real life"?

[ozzy6900]

The inning is over, yes but the ball is not dead until all defensive players leave the field of play. There was no need to have the pitcher to go to the rubber as you cannot put the ball in play when it is already live. You also need both the pitcher and the catcher to put the ball in play.

As I said, the ball is still live so all the defense has to do (before the last defensive player leaves live ball territory) is get your attention and make the appeal at the proper base. From here, you make your decision and your call.

I applaud you for paying attention after the 3rd out and at least attempting to do it right. A play like this is usually a failure point for a rookie.

[MD Longhorn]

Well... I have one twist for you...

Was the coach on the field during a live ball? (If so, I don't generally answer coach questions during a live ball) Or did coach call time to ask you this question? Like O said, the ball is still live after the 3rd out. If you had to kill it to address the coach - then you go back to having to have the ball made live again (like you seem to have done).

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Well... I have one twist for you...

Was the coach on the field during a live ball? (If so, I don't generally answer coach questions during a live ball) Or did coach call time to ask you this question? Like O said, the ball is still live after the 3rd out. If you had to kill it to address the coach - then you go back to having to have the ball made live again (like you seem to have done).

I see what you are saying here and I am sure that we have people out there who would call TIME being asked by a coach between innings. I make it a point of not doing this. When there is a stop in the action (such as a change at the end of an inning, when a coach asks for TIME, I simply respond "There is no need at this point". You'll see this a lot at the lower levels.... foul ball and the coach wants TIME to talk to the batter. Not needed.

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

I see what you are saying here and I am sure that we have people out there who would call TIME being asked by a coach between innings. I make it a point of not doing this. When there is a stop in the action (such as a change at the end of an inning, when a coach asks for TIME, I simply respond "There is no need at this point". You'll see this a lot at the lower levels.... foul ball and the coach wants TIME to talk to the batter. Not needed.

You're right that "time" is redundant in the foul ball incident. However, in LL (11-12), this is an offensive conference and must be noted. You get one per inning, unless DC has a conference, which gives offense a "freebie."

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

The inning is over, yes but the ball is not dead until all defensive players leave the field of play. There was no need to have the pitcher to go to the rubber as you cannot put the ball in play when it is already live. You also need both the pitcher and the catcher to put the ball in play.

As I said, the ball is still live so all the defense has to do (before the last defensive player leaves live ball territory) is get your attention and make the appeal at the proper base. From here, you make your decision and your call.

I applaud you for paying attention after the 3rd out and at least attempting to do it right. A play like this is usually a failure point for a rookie.

I might be wrong but doesn't the right to appeal end when all players have left fair territory?

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

I might be wrong but doesn't the right to appeal end when all players have left fair territory?

OBR - 7.10 (d). Pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory. PBUC says "crossed foul lines".

FED says same thing.

Early in 7.10 (d) it says "before the defensive team leaves the field" but later in 7.10 (d) clarifies as above.

However the LLGB still says "all players". So it depends what org you are calling for.