Pirates/Braves ending
 

7/26 game. Ended just before 2AM, 19 innings, Braves won 4-3.

Find it once the video's posted. Oh, my.

Aw, c'mon. I'm sure Jerry was tired and just wanted to go to bed. :D

On the other hand:
Umpire Jerry Meals: Braves-Pirates call 'might have' been wrong | MLB.com: News

Like a non-umpire said somewhere else: If he's so blind he missed the original call, then he needs to quit umpiring. If he's so blind he can't tell he missed it on replay, then he needs to quit driving, too.

It was worth a laugh.

LOL, good game management by the PU ... somebody had to end it. :D

Thanks
David

I am a nominal Pirates fan and I watched the replay on SportsCenter, and it is my humble opinion that the Braves' player slid under the attempted tag of the Pirates' catcher. When F2 swung his left hand to make the tag, he missed tagging the Braves' runner's leg.

MTD, Sr.

19 innings and 2 AM? They're lucky the umps could keep their eyes open in the first place. I would think fatigue played a large role in the mistake, but it really was a dozy.

I am not convinced the catcher tagged the runner. Yes the throw beat him, but I see no direct evidence he tagged him as the glove hand never alters or moves has he sweeps through. It is possible he tagged him, but the replay does not show me 100%. One of the reasons I am not a fan of replay, because this is not a solid angle if you want to be sure. But in a game at my level this is likely going to be an out unless I clearly saw something that clearly showed a missed tag. No one said what we do is easy. ;)

Peace

OK, maybe I need to get off the road too. I've not seen it in slo-mo, and only got 3 angles on ESPN... but all the outrage about how horrible call this was is confounding me. On all 3 of the replays, at normal speed, it appears to me that the tag attempt, while made in PLENTY of time, simply missed the runner entirely.

Is it just me?

Jeff:

I agree with you. After I made my first post, I checked MLB.com and about 2/3rd of the way through the video there is a good replay angle and F2's sweep went over the runner's leg.

MTD, Sr.

There is one replay from the Pirates telecast (I was watching this live -- only because I'm a Phillies fan and wanted to see the Braves lose and because I was sneaking in a post-midnight workout) where it is 100% clear that the tag brushes the front leg of R3. It's Meals's job to see that OR it's his job to make the expected call there and not guess a miss.

After 600+ pitches and 6:39 and two ejections and 19 innings, I'm sure he was tired and fatigue could've played into the call. All the more reason to call the out on this play. And since the batter-runner face-planted 15 feet out of the box, it would've been an inning-ending double play.

I'd love to see such a replay - there is one replay where it appears there MAY have been a tag, but ball/glove/leg are all blocked by the catcher's right leg from the camera's POV. Other than that, I see no tag and no circumstantial evidence of a tag (other, perhaps, than the runner's reaction).

Pittsburgh Pirates: Did Jerry Meals Make the Worst Call in Recent Memory? | Bleacher Report

The embedded YouTube video -- go to 4:45 of the video, watch in fullscreen. Here's the look of the glove getting the leg. Let me try this. Immediately go to Full Screen:

‪Worst call in MLB history Pirates vs. Braves 2011‬‏ - YouTube

You can't tell at ALL from that angle....

Stills:

You Be the Judge: Worst Call at Home Plate Ever At End of Pirates-Braves Game?

Said Meals after the game:
“I saw the tag, but he looked like he oléd him and I called him safe for that. I looked at the replays and it appeared he might have got him on the shin area. I’m guessing he might have got him, but when I was out there when it happened I didn’t see a tag."

Jerry needed to move to the right. The swipe tag surprised him.

I can't believe so many people are defending this. Meals calls the runner out, they go to the 20th inning and there's not a single person that says anything. Instead he guesses, incorrectly, and ends a Major League Baseball game.

Really? You don't see the pants leg move on the tag?

Personally, I don't care about this play at all, with the exception that eliminating the expected call has finally reached this level -- where a MLB umpire is willing to make a "best guess" on a call where he got straight lined a bit rather than take all the pieces of evidence in front of him and realize that the ball beat the runner by a mile and missing an actual tag here is 10000000000x worse than calling R3 out on a swipe tag that *might* have missed.

How many of us would've given a quick little fist pump on our field and gone on to the next inning and not thought twice about it?

The video you show Rich is a little distorted and does not completely confirm what I am looking for, but then again that is why I said I see why the umpire called the play the way he did. I would rather see that angle in HD to see if there was a touch. That was never the angle I saw in the highlight package that was not on ESPN. The centerfield angle looked like a miss when you look for any type of contact.

Peace

I do not totally disagree with you, but we do not have video replay like they do. No one could dispute that call realistically because if there was a tag or miss, that took place with less than an inch. But when have the scrutiny those guys have, the expected call can get you in trouble. And how much the throw beat him is really irrelevant anyway. It is about the tag or not. We have seen many throws beat runners only to see better evidence than this that they missed the tag. I think this umpire was probably thinking he did not want to end the game on an "expected call."

Peace

He wouldn't have ended the game -- that's the point -- it would've gone on to the 20th inning. Instead....

I do not think at the time he is worried about that fact the game ended. We have to be able to make the tough call even if that call appears wrong at the time to others.

Peace

Shouldn't the ump have positioned himself more towards the third-base line extended? I don't bother with it at the high school level b/c there's not that many sweep tags, but in MLB that happens a lot.

Personally, I'd have called him out. Unless I'm fairly convinced the tag whiffed the runner, I'll give the fielder the benefit of the doubt. I don't see how this ump could've ruled that there definitely wasn't a tag in real time.

I was only defending it because EVERY angle I had seen showed a missed tag. None of the ESPN or MLB angles showed what you are showing here. Seeing this post, though, I agree he was out.

I had the benefit of watching the ROOT-Pittsburgh feed live in HD as it happened. I *wanted* Meals to be right. Until I saw that one angle and then, well, I felt bad for him.

But I still say this is a result of all the HD angles forcing umpires to try to be this fine on calls like this. The human eye and our positioning can't always adjust quickly enough and calling runners like this out had served us and the game well for a long time. Not anymore. So we get results like this.

I'll need to tune in tonight to see how it goes with Meals working third in front of the Pirates dugout. :D

As it turned out, yes.

Maybe he thought it would be a collision, since the ball was there so far in advance.

In HS, swipe tags are more common, because of the malicious contact rule.

Honestly, I thought is was a heck of a call.

On a swipe tag we're looking for glove movement. Something to indicate a tag is made. That didn't happen. And unless he heard some sort of "tick!" if the mitt hitting something, that's the right call to make.

Now, watching his body language after the call, he then thinks he got it wrong. He's second guessing himself as he's walking off the field.

For all the calamity I've heard about the call, it's not that bad of a missed called...if we can even say that with 100 percent certainty.

I would like to see the video that shows proof that he was tagged. I believe that most of us would call the out but this is a potentially spectacular call.

I usually don't pay much attention to the pitch trackers but I'm curious about this very lengthy game. Do they have trackers that break it down this game and what the "correct ball/strike percentage" was?

-Josh

Potentially spectacular? Making this call is the equivalent of saying that a piece of thread did not touch the needle as it passed through the eye.

Maybe I am just too old school (I never thought I'd say that), but to me, this is, without a doubt, picking up the poop-covered end of the stick for no good reason. There's one thing to have courage to make the right call, but when the ball beats the runner by *this much*, the call had better be 100% defensibly right. In other words, the question that needs to be asked here is: Prove to me he missed the tag. I agree with the announcers (another first) -- unless there's clear daylight, I'm calling the runner out.

The funniest part of this might be the fanboy reaction in the comment sections of these websites:
It has gotten to the point where people look for anything to find fault in umpires, right or wrong. They're supposed to take any and all bullsh*t from the dugout on balls/strikes because "No one else knew they were saying anything". They're supposed to let players slam equipment because they were just "Showing emotion". They're not supposed to make otherwise correct calls because they're "Inserting themselves in the game". They're not supposed to play rodeo clown because they're "unapproachable". (Joe West/Francona or West/Gardenhire this year).

These idiots don't take into account all the tough calls that they get right in MLB every day. It's all about players being victimized because there isn't instant replay. Nevermind the fact that instant replay can't fix half of this stuff (Changing out calls to safe, foul to fair, etc). Not to mention instant replay is inconclusive because a lot of the time, like this play in question, you can't even tell for certain after watching every replay available.

People (fans, media) have no idea that umpiring now is as good as it has ever been. Contrary to their pissing and moaning, umpires now are MUCH more approachable than even 15-20 years ago. How often do you see them going "old school" on a manager nowadays?

What gets to me is that no one is criticizing the catcher for the shoddy "toreador" tag.

I don't think the catcher deserves such criticism, myself.

[QUOTE]Rich IMO, the aforementioned is the crux of the issue.

"back in the day" whether the runner was actually tagged or not was irrelevant. The ball beat the runner by a good margin and the call would have been out and for the most part no one would have said anything.

Now we have a zillion angles and the "neighborhood play" along with the expected call are now "out the window"

IMO, the MLB umpires are looking for "too much evidence" since they know a game ended play or any play for that matter will be reviewed a zillion times.

Pretty soon we will not have to wait for MLB / The Players union or anyone else for that matter to push for IR. The umpires themselves will push for it so they do not have to take all the flak they are presently taking.

Pete Booth

Me neither, now that I know it wasn't a toreador tag - the bullfighter motion comes AFTER the tag as he's trying to show the umpire the ball.

No time to clear the bat, he's tossing it behind him as the ball is coming in. Which makes for no adjustment to swipe tag and way too close to the play.

Screw the bat... if the catcher wants it out of there on a ground ball to the infield he can get rid of it himself. I'm not compromising my job and my call just to provide a courtesy.

19th inning... Meals is a good umpire too. Can happen to any of us.

My thinking as well when I first saw the video.

Rita

I couldn't agree more. I constantly side with umpires when having discussion amongst family or friends. But this one can't be defended. Meals just missed it. It doesn't make him a bad umpire, he just kicked it for whatever reason. It happens.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;775489]Pete,
Don't get them started on the 'expected call' debate. Sheesh!

Mike

The call is what the call is...what Jerry thought he saw happen. Pirate reaction was expected and they filed a formal complaint today.

Now, here is what is really awful. From ESPN.com

"Meanwhile, the daughter of Meals, Laci, confirmed that Meals' family has been harassed since the controversial call, ESPN.com's Amy K. Nelson reports. She declined to talk further or answer any other questions. The specifics of that harassment are unknown.

An Internet search of the Meals' home phone number showed at least two message boards posted their home address and telephone number last night."

Meals just turned 50, so his kids may still be school age and at home. We all mess up, but few of us become targets like this. When an umpire's family is threatened and harrassed, lines have been crossed.

Buster Olney is proposing a fifth umpire (again) stationed in a replay booth. If we keep seeing more calls like this, it may not be long before some form of replay is enacted. There are simply too many dollars riding on the calls.

Maybe, but if this was the NFL model where you need conclusive evidence to turnover the call, this call would have been very hard to overturn. And the problem with baseball is that there are not always great angles to get plays right. So you can have replay, but many of these close plays will not change because of the limitations of the angles. And the only reason that people think this was missed is because of the "expected" call scenario rather than what really happened.

Peace

My toughest call (at least for me) is a swipe tag especially when the play is going away from me. From what I can see the swipe tag seemed to get his leg. Both teams expected an out. When you go against the expected call you better be 100% right. If you're not sure or didn't get a good look go with the expected call This is just my opinion. Meals from what I read didn't seem so confident of his call. Hey if he kicked it he kicked it we've all missed calls and life goes on. Frankly I wouldn't blame him if he missed it he had to be exhausted what with him being on his feet for 6+ hours and focusing on every pitch.

The tag can be seen just fine. RichMSN provided a link here and there are plenty others on CNN, ESPN, MSNBC, YouTube and on TV (QuickPitch had a couple great looks at the out) that are as conclusive. Out.

Bring on replay for MLB already.

Wrong. Every replay that was being shown last night - both on ESPN highlights and on MLB.com - CLEARLY showed the tag missing the runner. Multiple angles at multiple speeds. It was nearly half a day later before anyone produced a video that began convincing the readers here of the missed call. If all the umpires had were the ESPN replays to deal with at the game, this would not have been overturned.

Imagine the outrage then! "How can you miss this call with replay?!?!?!"

The replays clearly showed a missed tag....when the tag was not missed? HUH?

I disagree that the replays shows a definitive tag. There was no definitive angle and why if they had to use the "conclusive" model that other sports use then that would have been iffy. The best argument the media said was "The throw beat him." Well that is not a very good standard because throws beat runners all the time on tag plays and the fielder does not make the tag.

And forget this play; there are a lot of plays that show no angle. I remember about a week ago there was a play with a foul ball/fair ball play with the White Sox and there was no angle that could be conclusive. Of course we could have an opinion, but not where anything could be said one way or the other. That is the problem if they go to replay in MLB. The angles are not going to be good in many ball parks to change anything IMO.

Peace

Exactly.

Peace

Yes... did you see any of these replays? There is obvious air between glove and player from every angle that was immediately available - there was a singular angle from foul right field that probably showed the moment of the tag best, but that tag was blocked by the catcher's leg.

I compare this play to a play Davey Phillips had at the plate during the 1987 World Series at Minnesota. According to Phillips' autobiography, he had a play at the plate in Minnesota. Minnesota was on offense. The Minnesota runner came in and the throw beat him to the plate by a mile (like last night). Phillips called him out. There was no argument from the runner, any coaches or the manager. About a minute later (during the commercial break) the whole stadium starts booing. Apparently, the replay showed that the runner's foot touched the plate a second or two ahead of the actual tag. As Phillips wrote (and I paraphrase), if I had called him "safe" I would have had to eject half the St. Louis dugout. As it was, he didn't hear a peep at anytime from anyone about the call (other than the fans' booing).

Now the umpires have no safety valve. If Meals' had gone old school and called him "out" because the ball beat the runner by a mile, but the tag was actually missed by an inch or two...then it would have be called "the worst call ever," or "a horrible way to end a classic game." So now, because of HD replays he (umpires) have to ignore what worked so well for 100+ years and try to determine if F2 actually did just nick the runner with the tag, or if F2 did, in fact, just barely miss the tag.

I'm am convinced from my conversations with various persons that a majority of MLB umpires would vote FOR instant replay. They are just opposed to a college football system where someone in the booth who is not a part of the crew overrules them. They want to be able to correct their own mistakes (more like the NFL replay system). Call it a pride thing.

MLB thought that the tag was conclusive on the replays. I think it's time that some on this board either (a) get HD or (b) stop driving. :)

I do not care what MLB says. They are trying to cover their *** and make everyone responsible but them. And that is pretty much all I have had is HD TVs. That is all I watch and there was no angle that showed conclusively the tag, just like there are not a lot of conclusive replays in other sports where there is no change to many calls.

Peace

Just look at the runner, did he think or act like he was safe?? A tuff call to end a game like that.

Expected calls.
 

I didn't play baseball (golf was a Spring sport in Ohio when I was in H.S.) but Mark, Jr., and Andy (my younger son, but doesn't officiate basketball or umpire baseball, but Junior and I are working on him) both played baseball.

They both do not understand the expected call. Why? Because they feel that since MLB players are the best players in the world, they believe that they should be held to the highest standard of play. Just because the throw beat the runner, doesn't been the runner should be called out. The throw is only the first part of the play, the second part is the tag. Another play that bugs them is call the Runner out on a force at 2B to start a DP when the Fielder is only in the zip code of the bag; I am sure we have seen that call when the Fielder wasn't even in the same area code as the bag.

I guess I am saying screw the expected call: Call it correctly the first time and if idiots want to act like idiots, let them and take care of business.

MTD, Sr.

OUT, OUT, OUT, play on. I don't remember ever seeing a blown call that was so easy to make correctly. This one made national news tonight, not just sports channels. Not only is out the correct call, it is the expected call. My wife pointed this one out to me, she saw it on O'Reilly show for heaven's sake.

Only two post out of all these about moving the bat? To me that was his critical error. It broke his concentration and he failed to get in a better position.

Joe Torre, an executive with MLB baseball disagrees with your assessment. His quote regarding the missed out is available online and has been shown numerous times on ESPN, CNN, and multiple local stations.

Oh, the umpire who made the call said that after seeing the replay, the runner was tagged on the shin. That sounds pretty definitive, but then again you know more than two MLB guys. LOL!

It's pretty funny that some whine about the what people would say if we had MLB instant replay and the call was still missed.

I imagine that it would be the same as what happens in the NFL, NCAA football, NBA and NHL. Some will keep whining about how their team was robbed while others will applaud the second look.

The fact that technology is there to assist in theseMLB games but ignored is silly.

Who cares what Joe Torre says? Isn't it funny that all these "executives" are usually former managers or general managers who wouldn't know anything about umpiring if it bit them on the a$$?

MLB executives who are former players and managers are much better suited to offer opinions about the game than those from the outside (very few of them and for good reason). I'm pretty sure that MLB values his opinion more than say, a Wisconsin based, amateur umpire on an online forum. So, to answer your first question, MLB does. And for your second, no, it isn't funny because your assertion isn't true. This isn't about umpiring mechanics, it regards a bad call and the need for review of such important decisions. Torre did not comment about Meals being out of position or his training, he spoke on what he and the MLB front office saw as a missed call in a critical situation. End of story.

And he also mentioned in that press release that he saw no need whatsoever for expanding replay to cover plays like this. I guess that overrides the opinion of, say, an Illinois based, amateur umpire on an online forum.

[QUOTE]IMO, they do not understand the expected call because it was not explained to them properly.

You said

The aforementioned is not a valid definition of the expected call. We are not talking bang bang or Close plays.

here's the expected call.

1. Runner is going to be out by a good margin
2. QUALITY throw
3. Tag where it it supposed to be.

Example:

R1 stealing

The throw beats R1 by some 6-10 feet. F4/F6 has glove down near base = OUT. As they say in Brooklyn NY "Forget about" the actual tag the runner is OUT.

The aforementioned is the way the game was called (and hardly a peep from either side) UNTIL the advent of Super Slo Mo Replays and differerent angles and the play being reviewed a zillion times.

Same with the neighborhood. We are talking about a play in which the runner is out by a mile. Why have F4/F6 risk injury - no need to. As long as they are in the vicinity of the bag and the throw is a quality throw used to be good enough.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Pete Booth

Just like Rich said, who gives a damn what Torre or any executive says that is trying to cover PR. If that was the case than there will never be IR when the Commissioner says he is not for it. And if you listen to Selig as well he makes it clear that if there is such a system it will be very limited. It might not involve plays like this that we are talking about.

And who cares what the umpire says now? I think he made that comment to appease people, because if this took place during the game and there was IR, I doubt the result would have changed if you needed conclusive evidence to change a call. Or there would have been a debate if that was a good change. The media tends to take these situations and complain when they do not get the result. There are many times in other sports when the IR did not overturn a call and the media went crazy. And in those sports I think it will be a lot easier to change calls than baseball will ever be able to do at least that is the case with out and safe calls.

Peace

It's pretty despicable when you misrepresent what was realy said. If you want to do that, realize that it is easy to find the actual release on MLB.com

Here is what Joe's release actually said,

"Having been the beneficiary of calls like this and having been on the other end in my experience as a player and as a manager, I have felt that this has always been a part of our game. As a member of the Commissioner’s Special Committee for On-Field Matters, I have heard many discussions on umpiring and technology over the past two years, including both the pros and the cons of expanding replay. However, most in the game recognize that the human element always will be part of baseball and instant replay can never replace all judgment calls by umpires. Obviously, a play like this is going to spark a lot of conversation, and we will continue to consider all viewpoints in our ongoing discussions regarding officiating in baseball.
“We expect the best from our umpires, and an umpire would tell you he expects the best of himself. We have to continue to strive for accuracy, consistency and professionalism day in and day out.”

He said that instant replay can never replace all judgement calls by umpires, not that there is no need for it. Further, he stated that they will consider all viewpoints regarding ongoing discussions regarding officiating in baseball while...striving for accuracy and consistency. That would seem to indicate that they are looking at all avenues to protect the integrity of the game, the value of the business and the investments of those involved.

The beginning of the press release also stated that Meals admitted the bad call to Torre and the MLB front office. We have seen a number of critical calls being blown lately. Instant replay won't solve all but will definitely assist the field crew in many more. People worried about how long it would make NFL games and most can't imagine the game without it. In the end, MLB will protect the cash cow and the opinion of this Illinois amateur umpire will be vindicated. We have witnessed too many steps towards that end already.

Jeff,
Stop. Your posts are endlessly convoluted.

I have never stated that instant replay will fix all bad calls in baseball. No one expected it in professional football, basketball, hockey or soccer. About a decade ago some umpires complained about the huddles they saw taking place on NCAA and MiLB fields. When MLB adopted the "let's work to get the call right" attitude, some whined that the human element was going away from the game. Now, we see the LWTGTCR mentality prevalent on amateur fields across America. The game didn't suffer. It improved.

Meals admitted his mistake because it was very public and the MLB office expects professional demeanor from WUA members. I respect Meals immensely for owning up to it. I deplore those who harassed his family and the barstool jockeys who believe they could have done a better job that night. He is a terrific umpire who just showed the world that he is human. Meals did what many here would never do, admit a shortcoming. MLB will think far more of him for doing that rather than acting headstrong about a bad call.

How long before there's a 'Meals' version of this?


Doug Eddings Is A Douche: FireDougEddings.com

For the record, I don't think Meals' call was the "Worst call in MLB history" as the fanboys keep saying, or even a bad call at that. Was it missed? Maybe, but in real time I can see how he didn't see a tag. As others have said, replay would probably show this as inconclusive.

As far as IR goes in MLB, I don't like it. I'm okay with it being used for boundary and fair/foul calls on home runs like it is now, but it just muddies things up otherwise. You can't change foul balls to fair, you can't change a catch to a no-catch with runners on base, etc. If MLB is going to implement replay for this stuff, the NFL might as well review every penalty, and the NBA better review every close foul (block/charge plays maybe) as well, because that is essentially what these people pushing for replay want on the baseball side.

Something the umpires also better push for is an ejection if the manager loses the challenge. You get one challenge per game. If you win the challenge, no more for the game. If you lose it, you are dumped.

These people that keep talking about how bad the umpiring has gotten are incredible stupid. Umpires have missed calls for 100+ years and the game is doing fine. HDTV and multiple camera angles are the only thing that have changed how umpires work. (As others have said in this thread)

First of all I have a right to give an opinion about this or anything. If you do not like it, do not read them or do not come to this site. Then you will not have to worry about the nature of my posts. It is not like we interact during the season. ;)

OK, but there are many examples that replay would not correct plays or give a better angle in baseball. Those other sports can put a camera on the goal line or goal to show if the ball went in the goal or a score was taking place. I also did not say the game would suffer, I said that many of these plays that people go crazy about will not be overturned if they take the model from other sports where you need conclusive evidence to make a ruling (like the Oklahoma at Oregon college football game several years ago). Even football has many problems with getting good angles on certain plays. And with the TV disparity that MLB has where the Yankees has a better TV deal than the Royals, you might find out that there is a inconsistency in the application or ability to show plays in one park compared to another. Football does not have this problem because they share revenue with TV coverage are almost the same from one game to another.

Again, this is something that was done because of the nature of the coverage. If ESPN did not go over this play 100 times, there would have been no comment about this call. I have seen many missed calls this season and did not see any statement from the umpire. This is not about him as an umpire, but there was a time when they did not give this kind of access to the media about calls. And other leagues do not allow their officials to directly comment about situations they are directly involved in. This is all about PR and I am sure he was encouraged by his bosses to talk about this play to the media where other leagues would just have someone from the league discuss these plays and keep the individual from making personal statements. And I also think a lot of the fuel he is given personally with his address exposed are because he commented on this play. Torre and others from the league should talk about this, not the umpire involved. And that has nothing to do with being headstrong.

Peace

If MLB REALLY CARES about the quality of umpiring then before expanding IR why not INVEST in their product.

Why not take a more active role in umpire development etc. Until you make it to the BIGS which is next to impossible, you earn peanuts. A manager at Walmart makes more then the Crew Chief at Triple A.

In a nutshell, you are not attracting the "best of the best" with the current process in place. MLB leaves umpire development up to someone else.

IR would simply be a "baindaid" to the REAL problem.

Invest in your product, and see what happens.

Pete Booth

Despite the assertions of those who should be MLB umpires but aren't, this was not a gross miss. It took several views of replays from different angles to find the definitive view of a light tag of the pant leg. This will not be remembered as a huge issue.

Umpires have always missed calls. Today's umpires are no worse than those of the 50's or 60's. The difference is that today we have a permanent record of verification of their missed calls. In the 50's and 60's we had just our memories of our opinions.

None of the proposals being considered by ML for instant replay include tag plays, and none of the parties to any agreement: owners, players' union, managers - have voiced support of such a move.

Instant replay will be expanded when it can be done efficiently, timely and controllably. The WUA concept of adding a fifth umpire to each crew and including IR in the rotation is the most attractive to me, personally, but promoting 17 umpires to the ML at the same time may result in diluting the talent level.

The kids are well trained, supervised and evaluated through the minors. A larger issue is the lack of serious continuing education and training once an umpire makes the majors. Instead of just working spring training games, ML umpires should have a rigorous course in mechanics and rules every pre-season.

You have every right to your opinion. Try to have just one in a sentence though. You cloud every issue with non-sequitors and irrelevancies that it makes it difficult to read them. I'm not the first to tell you this. Enjoy posting; you've done it thousands of times on numerous boards to know that your musings are often met with eye rolls and contempt. I just offered advice on how you can clean them up for forums, that is all. I have no problem with you disagreeing as long as it is focused.

Seriously, what part of "instant replay will not remedy every bad call" is a puzzle to you? No one insists that it will fix all calls.

TV deals have nothing to do with replay, it has to do with revenue generation. Every ball park has enough camera operators and remote capablilities already to handle future changes.


Stop. You are once again writing about something you know nothing about. Thousands of Pirates fans were watching and listening to that game. The TV commentator went nuts after the call and he didn't even have the replay yet. When he did, the radio booth guys next door could see it and added to the controversy. ESPN had nothing to do with it.

Google it. There are several umpires who have addressed issues regarding blown calls this year.

Irrelevant. MLB does.

Seriously? He commented on the play after the game, when a pool reporter asked if he had seen the replay. Like Jim Joyce after the Gallaraga call, Meals stepped up and admitted his mistake. It was classy and commendable. The goofs that published his address and phone numbers, harrassed his family and threatened him are typical mouth breathing, knuckledraggers. If they got mad because he admitted his mistake then you are correct, but most educated souls think otherwise.

Honestly Mike, I really do not care what you think of my postings. Do not read them. I think I am doing just fine on and off this board with my opinions. And it appears my positions on this seem to be more in line with many here, unlike yourself who tends to piss many off every time you post. Not saying I am loved, but I have many that see things in a similar way. ;)

Interesting as I never said I was puzzled by this. If you listen to the MLB brass, they are not going to add it for plays we are talking about. That means you have to listen to all of what they say, not just the part that fits your position in this thread.

That is interesting. I guess it would not matter what company decides to cover the games and how much they put into the broadcast. MLB might have 30+ different contracts to cover games and the NFL or NBA has one or two. The NFL does not have the same game covered by two different companies for the local broadcasts. I think the NFL can and has controlled what they allow for their replay system.

Also the TV broadcasts of this game did not have the same angles of this play. They had to be put together by ESPN to show multiple angles to dispute that this call was incorrect.


You are right ESPN did not show all the angles on SportsCenter that if you were watching a particular broadcast, you would not have seen the other feeds of the game. How in the world would I know that at all? Hmmmmm, maybe because the folks at ESPN made that clear to everyone watching SportsCenter or the First Take people the next day when IR was discussed as a remedy to "get this play right." Of course I have no idea what I am talking about. I guess you were in Atlanta and Pittsburgh at the same time. Or better yet you watched both games at the same time and you are the only one that can know this.

Can you read? I did not say there was never an umpire that commented on a play, I said that there were many that were not addressed at all either way. And if you read the comments, it sounded like he was put up to it by a boss, not something he said on his own. If he clearly thought that he missed it, he would not have justified it by suggesting that only a part of the pants moved. I guess the only reason pants move on a sliding player is because someone touches them. No, not because the player was sliding or that someone that moves an object by them that nothing around them moved. I threw my arm past something hanging in my closet and the cloths moved, I guess I had to touch them? :D


And maybe one of the reasons the MLB is considered to have some of the worst officiating programs than the other major pro sports. And it is relevant because there are not many media people that only cover one sport are commenting on this issue.


You must did not see those first comments. He did not just say "I blew it." He said he did not see a tag. Then the next day his comments were different and more descriptive and talking about pant leg moving. He did not see he clearly saw a tag or that there is no way he was correct. And if someone was admitting a mistake, he certainly did a lot of justification for why called what he did.

Oh you are right, only those that agreed with you are the most educated. I did not see people on ESPN today not only mock the "apology" or say that they would not have changed the call if they used the NFL model. But then again you do not know anything about other sports, so how are you more educated. Those “most educated only said “The ball beat the runner” and talked about the expected call, but you love that type of discussion I see. :D

Peace

Curious -- just a question. (First post on OF, by the way -- hello.) Is it the same analysis if the score had been 2-1 and the safe call extends rather than ends the game?

This all makes a lot of sense to me if Meals acknowleged he was guessing. (Maybe he did -- I didn't see all the post-game stuff.) If he wasn't, though -- if he felt he got a great look and saw it right -- the fact that replay shows he was wrong doesn't make it a guess. Just a missed call, right?

Meals didn't begin guessing until after the game. He called what he believed he saw and what he believed to be the correct call.

OK, it seems to be generally agreed - even by at least some media - that had replay been in use for a call of this nature, that the available camera feeds would not have been conclusive and therefore would not have changed the call.

So, why is it that this call is being used as further ammunition in favor of replay expansion in baseball?

Horrible Call. Period.

Is it? This was just a bad call in a mid-season game not a reason to expand the cause for replay in baseball.

The Pujols HR review took 4 minutes. Without replay there surely would have been a rhubarb that would have lasted nearly that long with fingers in the face, ejections, bumping, suspensions. Now, waiting through a review has less entertainment value than watching the ground crew rake the infield. But it does lend to more civility. Ironically both of these game deciding replays from the same night were inconclusive. And in both cases, if the "expected call" were made, it would have been the better call. If baseball does expand replay, the red flag idea would probably be best. You get one a game. You lose it if the manager gets ejected for arguing a call inappropriately - after all, he could have just thrown out the flag. And he'd best save it for when it really matters.

Sorry,

I think you are wrong about a lot of things....

1. Civility in MLB is a big problem, and it has to do with the overpaid egos of the players and to a lesser extent managers. It also has to do with a bunch of losers on ESPN who try to sensationalize every possible mistake a TV camera finds.

I love to listen to Marty Breneman do a Reds radio game. Problem is these days all he can is complain about umpires every day. I can't remember the last time I heard his compliment a crew or umpire, or admit his opinion was wrong when replay showed it to be correct. People with big egos accuse umpires of having big egos.

2. Ejections may have happened, but nothing else you said would have occurred. If the Commissioner's Office was serious about civility, they would start cracking down on players, coaches, and team reps who throw umpires under the bus as often as they can to cover their own mistakes.

3. Maybe the 'expected call' would have been the right call here, but F2 screwed up this play and caused the problem to begin with. He never should have let the runner get to the plate until he knew the umpire called him out. Why is it a player gets to assume something when it's not clear it is what happened? If he didn't hear out after the tag, or heard no tag or no call, then tag him again and make sure the PU sees it. But don't start crying how you got cheated because you didn't make the right play to begin with.

4. Your plan is awful. So a team throws a flag (ha! ha! just like Little League) in the 3rd and the reply shows them to be right. Now you are taking away their right to throw the flag in the 9th on a close play when the winning run is scoring or a HR is or isn't a homer? That solves all our problems.

5. The real problem in all this are the jerks who throw umpires under the bus every time a call doesn't go their way, and the clowns who spend all night with an Excel spreadsheet, a few camera angles off Youtube, and too much time on their hands in their parent's basement. Life is unfair, even in Baseball. they need to get over themselves and play the game.

Here is my opinion in one sentence: Every single person who is complaining about the umpires, and this call in particular, and who have never umpired a baseball game, need to kindly and quickly STFU.

Amen, screw the bat. The umpire isn't the designated field bat boy. Only time he should ever move a bat is when he has plenty of time to do so, while not affecting his play in any way.

How is this just like Little League? The flag in LL is for a runner leaving base early.

I like the Charles Barkley-style school of umpiring: each umpire should be allowed to beat the cheese out of one manager or candy-a$$ player per game when they argue too much.:cool:

sadly that is the state of the game
 

That is what baseball has become. They think replay has worked in football, (it has not) and they think it works in basketball, (it does not), so now they are moving on to baseball.

I too listen to a lot of game, many on the radio, and the announcers have gotten really bad about calling out an umpire. Many times when they don't have a clue what they are talking about.

I know they are paid by the team, but I think they should spend more time calling out the players who don't make the "routine play."

Thanks
David

Have you ever been critical of the President of the United States? If so, using your logic, you are out of line in doing so unless your name happens to be Jimmy Carter, George Bush, or Bill Clinton.

apples and oranges

He blew the call and Steve is 100% right. STFU! This is a site for umpires to discuss rules, mechanics and ideas that help umpires improve their officiating skills.

We can care less about some meda talking head, Fan, coach or opinionated idiot that has never "walked the walk" but, believes they should be allowed to "talk the talk".

Yours truly,

Jimmy Carter, George Bush, and Bill Clinton