LL All Stars & Travel Team Question
 

This is a question asked & answered on active.com's forum but I'd like to thrwo this out here too.

Can a LL All Star participate in a travel team at the same time as being on the LL All Star team?

The answer on active.com was before 2008- no, but now (2009 forward)- yes.

Agreed?

ô!
 

Who the phock cares? You really don't get this site.

Yeah, not so much an umpire question.

What?
 

Tim C - if that's the most appropriate comment you can add, please be advised that it wasn't constructive and insulting.

And
 

Not everything is an "umpire" question on this forum (in case you haven't noticed).

There are rule interpretation questions asked/answered all the time here.

Aaaarrrgghhhh!

JM

MrUmpire, paging MrUmpire :-)

Correct.

And don't go looking for a specific rule. It's legal because it isn't banned.

BTW, it was only banned for 2-3 years. It wasn't "always" before 2008.

The poster cares. If you don't just don't participate in the thread.

It is a rules question.

I'm guessing that this vitriol was because it is a LL question. If it was a similar question about NFHS baseball, the response wouldn't have been as strong.

Out of curiousity: Is it a rule enforced by umpires, or is it an "administrative" rule enforced by others? Are LL umpires really expected to have the knowledge and records to handle this issue?

It is a rules question, only in the sense that it isn't in the playing rules, and has everything to do with a league president or tournament director's job, and nothing at all to do with an umpire's job. I believe that is the reason for the so-called "vitriol."

Let me ask this then (to all): Is this the proper forum in which to table and discuss subjects that are completely unrelated to umpiring?

Thanks Rich..
 

First, thank you Rich for "coming to my defense", so to speak.
Second, you only need to look at today's thread list to see that that are several posts NOT related to just umpiring (in the purest sense).
Third, I'm not sure why some people felt the need to respond in the manner that they did, simply because I was asking for the community's opinion/consensus/knowledge on what is a RULES question, maybe an admin one, but a rules question, none the less. (Again, thank you Rich for your input)
And lastly, if this forum is a "just for umpires" exclusive club, than I will only ask this type of question other places & limit questions here to "on the field" questions.

I have volunteered in our LL for over 15 years as a coach and now, as an official game scorekeeper and announcer. I not sure why someone would think a question related to LL is an area for "derision".

I can answer that. The collective memory here is of LL parents/fans/scorekeepers coming to the forum to ask questions that have nothing to do with umpiring or officiating a game. Over the years, that breeds frustration and impatience. The new guy who shows up with what he thinks is a great question for umpires gets dumped on and can't understand why.

Not many folks here work LL or indeed much baseball at all with players who don't shave. The few who do are quite knowledgeable and can provide answers to most questions, as you've seen.

ô!ô
 

As noted earlier: who could possibly care on an umpire board.

I guess any idiot can post. I prove that every time I post.

T

It's administrative. But it's also a question about the eligibility of the player to participate in a game.

Yes - a good LL umpire should know the all rules.

The umpires won't have the records - but in this case there are no records involved. FYI, in the tournament the team manager carries the records and the TD at the site (no one else) can examine them if there's an issue.

This is an officiating board. Since when are the only officials at a game umpires?

I don't have an answer to this question and I simply don't care what the answer is. But why do I have to tell everyone that? Someone (such as Rich Ives) can answer the question and the thread dies a natural death. Instead, some unnecessary vitriol is thrown towards the OP and the forum proves, once again, that we're not a welcoming place.

Again, thanks.
 

Again to both Richs, I thank you.

mb- i totally get where you're coming from on some people's memories of LL parents etc., and our league is not perfect by any means, but I ask you: are the leagues above LL immune to the same issues? When my son played Babe Ruth level and tried out for his HS team we found those too to contain politics, bad parent behavior and coaches with pre-conceived ideas of who played when/where and not based on tryouts and practices. I submit to you that until you get to the college level "daddyball" and politics still play an integral part in the those leagues above LL and until you get to college.

Also, just as a note; I would stack up our LL's umpires with the Legion and HS umpires in our area any day of the week.

(Sorry if this post to "mb's" comment doesn't meet some purist's standards.)

About whether a team can play travel ball and all stars? There's no way I'd possibly have to deal with this situation, so what's the point in an umpire knowing this?

After doing the coaches meetings for our district tournaments last night, I wish the coaches knew some basic playing rules. Doesn't a good coach know these?

In a good many LL organizations, the UIC is a board member also.

Then he knows the eligibility rules in his role as the board member, not in his role as an umpire. Your statement that "a good umpire knows all the rules" is, in the context of eligibility rules, absurd. You've categorically implied that any umpire who does not know the eligibility rules for any game he works is simply not "a good umpire."

This is an umpires site however, I did fine a rule that pertains to this.

LL Rule 13.21 Specifically states that travel players are only allowed to participate on their affiliated local LL All Star team if the cost of Nachos and a soda are the same at both fields where they participate. Equitable monetary reimbursement is not an acceptable bartering method for price differentials, and is also not an acceptable method to obtain favorable slection to become a All Star participant. However, should the parents of the interested participant or the participant theirself have the ability to produce mass amounts of currency to the umpires that officiate their games, then by all means possible the participant should be allowed to play on any or all the teams they feel like. Also broadcasting of any of these games without the consent of the NFL, NBA, NHL and T-Ball should only be allowed if the umpires are very, very, very well compensated. This compensation, is above and beyond the initiation fee specifically mentioned above.

Yea, and the rule I quoted above is real too.

I am often amazed that people will pose a question on a non relevant web site rather than go straight to the source. In this case contact Little League directly:
Travel Teams

As noted before...
 

This site is about officiating, not just on-the-field umpiring, as several posters have pointed out to you purists. Officiating includes rule admin questions whether you like it or not. I repeat, look at several threads on today's list and you will see several that do NOT pertain to strictly on-the-field issues.

If you do not have anything on topic to add to this thread, then DO NOT COMMENT-just ignore it. There are people on this site that can answer admin questions, so that's why I asked originally.

Don't like it- don't read it, or add snide/insulting comments. This is not an umpiring sandbox.

Thanks
 

Thanks for the link "frozenrope22". Since I can rarely find anything on the LL website w/o spending hours looking, I appreciate the link.

And, this is a relevant site to ask RULE questions. Sorry.

And when is the last time you saw an umpire rule on this problem?

Dear Parent,
It's pretty, um, difficult, to use one breath to suggest no one can tell you what not to post and follow it up by telling people how not to respond to your post.

Sincerely,
A concerned parent

Well - if you followed any of the LL boards or participated in LL instead of bashing it you'd see a LOT of LL umpires who are also LL officials and who rule on such issues.

Really?

Manager comes to you with a sub. You announce it. Opposing manager comes to you and says "That sub can't play because he's on a travel team".

So you can either know the rule (actually the lack of one) and it's history and tell him OR you can just stand there with a blank look and then call the TD.

Either way, you're dealing with it.

Regardless, an umpire working LL is not going to get involved with this in his role as an umpire. I, too, wear multiple hats within Little League, but suggesting that a LL umpire should know this because they might, at other times, be acting as a TD or some other such role, is a huge stretch.

We have some very good umpires who work LL who do nothing but umpire, and I see no need for them to know this. At all.

Shocked
 

Wrong.

The original link to this page was "eumpire.com".

This ties for the dumbest post ever made on the internet.

Next you'll tell me that I need also to know how many innings a pitcher has pitched so I know when he is illegally taking the bump.

It is in NO WAY something any umpire needs to know.

T

Either way, he's not going to be happy with an umpire and will protest up the chain. Likely such a protest would end up with the region, regardless of my knowledge.

I'm saying, "Not my position to rule on it" and I'm letting the kid play. I will note that he played, and if asked later will say that he played and some one in charge of administrative rules can determine the legality and penalty, if any.

So, someone who is both an umpire and a LL official rules on this issue. Is he doing so in his role as umpire or his role as LL official?

In the LL tourneys, this would be a show stopper until ruled upon. But like I said to Rich, this isn't going to get ruled on to anyone's satisfaction by the game umpire, no matter who it is.

LL allows protests to go to (1) the umpire, (2) the TD/DA/person in charge, (3) the region, (4) Williamsport. If the loser of the protest isn't happy, they can continue to appeal all the way to the janitor answering the phones at Williamsport. We've never had one go past the region, but I think that's because few know they can appeal the region's ruling.

You don't track subs?

So you don't know how long the pitcher's been there?

And you don't know the limits which ARE a real rule?

You picked the wrong example.

And besides, the pitching limits in LL are pitches, not innings - and it's by day - and in majors and minors you can't pitch in two games in a day -and in Juniors and Seniors you cannot pitch in two games in a day if you pitched 31 or more in the first game - and if someone protests you'd darn well better know the rules.

Or is allowing an illegal act OK?

LL 4.19
NOTE 2: All Little League officials are urged to take precautions to prevent protests. When a protest situation is imminent, the potential offender should be notified immediately. Example: should a manager, official scorer, league official or umpire discover that a pitcher is ineligible at the beginning of a game, or will become ineligible during the game or at the start of the next inning of play; the fact should be brought to the attention of the manager ofthe team involved. Such action should not be delayed until the infraction has occurred.

LL 9.01
(a) The league president shall appoint one or more umpires to officiate at each league game. The umpire shall be responsible for the conduct of the game in accordance with these official rules . . .
(b) Each umpire is the representative of the league and of Little League Baseball, and is authorized and required to enforce all of these rules.

OBR 9.01
(a) The league president shall appoint one or more umpires to officiate at each league championship game. The umpires shall be responsible for the conduct of the game in accordance with these official rules .. .
(b) Each umpire is the representative of the league and of professional baseball, and is authorized and required to enforce all of these rules.

NCAA 3-6
b. Each umpire is an approved official of the institution, league or conference
and is authorized and required to enforce each section of these rules.

FED talks in several places about administering the rules, not some of the rules.

Nope.

The protest when discovered during the game has to be resolved before the next pitch.

You need to know that too.

The state of Wisconsin has pitching limits for HS baseball. It's made clear to the coaches that umpires are neither expected to know the rules nor try to enforce them at the field. Therefore, I make no effort to know these rules.

I'm guessing it's the same in many states. I have no idea how many innings the pitcher threw earlier in the week and I don't care.

LL is different. I know who is ineligible to pitch before the game starts since the tourney I'm working is ringfenced.

Doesn't matter which hat he has on at the moment. What matter's is that he knows the answer.

That's nice but the subject organization is LL (Thread title is: LL All Stars & Travel Team Question)

Not in the least bit. And this is coming from an umpire who wears multiple hats.

I do not want my umpires to handle this -- I want them to refer this to the DA, who has probably already dealt with this question or can deal with it then.

Surprisingly, perhaps, I did know that. As soon as either coach says the P word, then I would get the TD involved and wash my hands of it. I have no knowledge of whether the kid is on a Travel team or not (or evenhow that term might be defined). And, I can't see caring, even if I did LL (if I was only an "ump" and not also in some admin role)

~Sigh~
 

Rich you're so full of crap it is hard to give you any credit about anything other than Ratdom.

NFHS does not set pitch limits or even innings pitched.

You example of keeping "tabs on subs" is just another patehic attempt at proving your point.

There is no chance that any umpire needs to know this crap.

This comes from the basketball side but it's similar...many states have limits to how many quarters a player can play at the varsity level (mainly for players who play on both the JV and varsity level). In no way are we expected to enforce this limit...even if for some reason we know a player was about to go over the limit (say if the officials were working a JV/V doubleheader). If the opposing coach brings this to our attention, we are to treat the substitution/participation as legal as they have broken no actual substitution rules.

Yep.

LL baseball is a big enough farce, then they decided to add their insane instant replay rule to the LLWS. Now it's just a laughing stock.

Well, if you remember, I spent my first 5 years umpiring LL until there was an opening on the local HS board. In my day, I was known as a "Plate Man" to you younger umpires a plate man is a sucker who does 4 to 5 games on a Saturday behind the plate because the UIC feels comfortable with him there. umpired sectionals, regionals and all stars. That was almost 40 years ago and I see that crap still goes on. I also saw 2 kids through LL baseball & softball in the 1990's.

Through the years I have seen LL go from a decent organization to a bloated farce that tries to oversee the game with idiotic rules generated by stupid BOD's and parents who cannot understand that not everyone gets to play in life and life is not fair! LL is far from what it is supposed to be. Hell, when I played LL if the coach sat you, you stayed on the bench until called. There was no complaining by the player or parents because that's the way it worked.

I was there, Rich, so if I tell you it sucks, I am telling you the truth and at almost 60 yrs old, I am not changing my tune for you or anyone.

Insulting? Good! I think that was the point.

Then the real problem here seems to be the name of the forum. It should not imply that administrative minutia should be discussed as well as real life situations that come up during sporting events.

Wait, wait WAIT A MINUTE, HERE!

Oz, you're not even 60, and you're that grumpy already. I swear, you rant like a guy pushing 80. I've always played nice, 'cause I thought I was dealing with an elder. Hell, I'm about as old as you are. So stop tellin' war stories, kid, you're not that old.

I'll be 67 in a couple of weeks so don't try that "old and wise" bit with me.

I started in LL in 1974. Did NOT leave after 5 years. You can work to keep things "in order" or run away and whine. You made your choice. I made mine.

So at what age should humans have to start fending for themselves versus just being in learn mode about things? Do we throw kids out of school because they aren't learning as fast as others? Should we? "Sorry kid - 3.0+ or hit the streets"!

You want competition, go elsewhere. LL is designed to let everyone play.

"Different" and "Wrong" are not synonyms.

Leaving an organization that is a mess is not running away. Telling others of the mess when that organization comes up in conversation is not whining.

REALLY?

You can stay and work to fix it or leave. But leaving isn't running away?

Bad mouthing it instead of trying to fix it is OK? Why?

I really don't give a crap how old you are and I did not "run". Several of us tried to hang on and teach but when you are not wanted, you do not hang around. I moved on to real baseball at higher levels.

You see, LL is just like anything else on this board, Rich. There are those who like it and those that do not. I happen to be one that does not and I will express my opinion any damn time I feel like it. All I was saying is that I was there - I am not one who just bashes without knowing. And as far as that "everyone plays - no competition" crap..... yeah - go to any LL field and watch a game and tell me there is no competition between the teams, the parents, the coaches and then there is All Stars. Maybe in your little corner of NY State it all works wonderfully but it doesn't work that way from what I have seen. Please continue to revolve in your little realm, I will remain umpiring and teaching umpires doing real baseball.

Of course there's competition. But it's really about how many throats get cut doing it that's the issue. Knives don't belong in youth sports. Kids deserve the chance tp PLAY and develop, not get tossed aside at 8 or whatever. Most people understand that kids develop at different rates and that until 15 or 16 you really don't know how an athlete will end up.

The other problem is within the local organization (whether LL, Ripken, Dixie, Babe Ruth, PONY, or whatever) not the national group. You can find good and bad groups under any of the various flags. So if you want to bash - bash your local league - they are (or were) the proiblem.

I work as much HS and Legion and adult baseball as I want, so I have a perspective on "real" baseball. Little League is still baseball, no matter how much you and people like you try to put it down. I'm proud of my association with Little League and for every time you continue to bash it, I'm happy to be around to tell you and everyone else here how much joy I've gotten by being involved with the local district and with the people I've met across the country.

LL is only as good as the local folks bustin' their *** at the local level.

The park I work at isn't perfect, but it's pretty close. Run by the book by a pretty hard working core of people. You'd be hard pressed to find a better place for kids to play ball.

To the north of us it's not like that at all. Hell, one league wants to leave LL altogether, and go to PONY. (They got bent out of shape because they got excluded from a post season tourney. Not paying district dues, and not attending meetings will do that). So they blame LL for not letting their kids play. Oh yeah, and their treasurer did time for grabbing $40K. Oh wait, that was the league on the south of us.

To our east and west, the play PONY. For years they've struggled to produce good high school players. And this has zero to do with the rule set, or field size. They just have poor organizations, and even worse coaches. It's that simple. Oh yeah, they're leading off, and calling balks at 9, but it doesn't seem to making a difference at age 14.

Look, LL, PONY, Dixie, Ripken, etc., it just doesn't matter what patch the kids wear on their shoulders. They're all only as good as the folks willing to step forward and make their organization work.

Oh, and "real" baseball is played at 90 feet, with wood bats, metal cleats, beer in the stands and rules that let you steamroll the catcher. Everything else is compromise for age and ability.