Illegal batter & tourney sub questions

MD Longhorn

PirateMike1973 wrote
however, in practice, in our LL, the official scorekeeper is in the "rules business" with the PU.

LL does not give you that authority. You might help PU administer the game ... when he asks.

One point not mentioned here... the possibility that YOU are the wrong party and announce the wrong batter - who then rushes to the plate instead of the proper batter. You've now CAUSED a BOO, adversely affecting the game.

Keep in mind at all times - scorekeeper's official duties are to keep track. PA's duties are to announce what is happening - not to affect it.

lawump

How to answer part A of the OP? Should I answer as an umpire, or as a former assistant SID who also did the baseball public address announcing?

What the hell, I'll go with the latter:

If it is the visitors who are sending the wrong batter up, you announce the wrong batter's name loudly and drawn out (so your team's head coach starts thinking to himself: WTF?).

If it is your team who is sending up the wrong batter, you announce the proper batter's name so that the wrong batter will stop dead in his tracks.

😃😃😃😃😃

Seriously (as this is an umpire board) I have no changes to what was posted above.

LilLeaguer

mbcrowder wrote
PirateMike1973 wrote
however, in practice, in our LL, the official scorekeeper is in the "rules business" with the PU.
LL does not give you that authority. You might help PU administer the game ... when he asks.

[True and righteous observations deleted.]

Little League may be weird this way. Little League officials are urged to prevent protestable events in general (Note 2 to Rule 4.19). Scorekeepers are designated officials for the game. So, it would not be out of line for a scorekeeper to bring an illegal substitution (say an ineligible pitcher) to PU's attention unbidden.

BOO, of course, is not a protestable event, and announcing the actual batter at the plate is the correct way to handle this situation.

MD Longhorn

LilLeaguer wrote
Little League may be weird this way. Little League officials are urged to prevent protestable events in general (Note 2 to Rule 4.19). Scorekeepers are designated officials for the game. So, it would not be out of line for a scorekeeper to bring an illegal substitution (say an ineligible pitcher) to PU's attention unbidden.

BOO, of course, is not a protestable event, and announcing the actual batter at the plate is the correct way to handle this situation.

Don't understand why you posted this. You post something inapplicable to the situation, and then mention why it does not apply. Very odd.

Your 2nd paragraph is spot on. Regarding the first, I'd ask you to read the section of the book regardin scorekeeper duties. Yes - you're an "official". But it WOULD be out of line to bring up BOO or in any way cause it to be noticed.

LilLeaguer

PirateMike1973 wrote
The reason I asked the Tourney sub question, as it's not specifically addressed in the LL rule book, is that we have hosted district & regional tourneys and some managers have never heard of the "free sub" practice once a player & his sub have met MPR. Some managers "get around" the SPR rules by subbing this way. (Once MPR are met, the better runner subs in once the other player has batted, just like the better hitter or fielder subs in...)

Free substitution within a blatting slot (once the sub's MPR is met) is why roster construction in LL playoffs is so much fun. That is not "getting around" the SPR limits; it's a perfectly valid substitution scheme.

LilLeaguer

mbcrowder wrote
Don't understand why you posted this. You post something inapplicable to the situation, and then mention why it does not apply. Very odd.

Your 2nd paragraph is spot on. Regarding the first, I'd ask you to read the section of the book regardin scorekeeper duties. Yes - you're an "official". But it WOULD be out of line to bring up BOO or in any way cause it to be noticed.

In your post that I was responding to, you said that "[The scorekeeper] might help PU administer the game ... when [the PU] asks." That might be misconstrued as a general statement about LL scorekeeper duties in every case.

I was pointing out, and being very clear that it didn't pertain to BOO, that there are circumstances when LL urges the scorekeeper to help administer the game without being asked. I don't think that is common in other rule sets, so I pointed it out for folks not as familiar with LL.

I'm sorry for the confusion.

Rich Ives

LilLeaguer wrote
Little League may be weird this way. Little League officials are urged to prevent protestable events in general (Note 2 to Rule 4.19). .

BOO is not a protestable event so this doesn't apply.

The scorekeeper is forbidden to call it to anyone's attention. The umpires are forbidden to call it to anyone's attention. It is specifically the defense's job to notice it. See 6.07 Note:

In OBR the scorekeeper prohibition is in rule 10. It's not just a LL rule.

Rich

PirateMike1973 wrote
On the announcing issue, it is related to a "rule issue", as the LL rule book states that no one is to "call attention" to the improper batter. So I get where you guys are coming from...however, in practice, in our LL, the official scorekeeper is in the "rules business" with the PU. We work together on rules and interpretations and, in our league, all substitutions are given to to the scorekeeper by a mgr or coach, not to the PU as I know some leagues do.

The reason I asked the Tourney sub question, as it's not specifically addressed in the LL rule book, is that we have hosted district & regional tourneys and some managers have never heard of the "free sub" practice once a player & his sub have met MPR. Some managers "get around" the SPR rules by subbing this way. (Once MPR are met, the better runner subs in once the other player has batted, just like the better hitter or fielder subs in...)

I work a fair amount of LL, a lot during the tournaments. Once MPR is met, the starter and sub can replace each other at will. It has absolutely nothing to do with the SPR rule and the team batting is not "getting away with" anything.

Some coaches don't get the SPR rule -- I've had people waste the SPR when it would make the most sense to simply use a substitute (or vice versa). I don't ask questions in those situations, although I'll sometimes ask for clarification an on occasion I've had coaches realize other options they have at that point.

Rita C

PirateMike1973 wrote
Illegal batter question- in our LL we announce via PA system the batter. According to LL rules you are not to "call attention" to an improper batter. It has been our practice to announce the correct batter & let the "chips fall" after the announcement. In most cases the opposing coaches do not protest the illegal batter & things just continue. My question is - should we announce the proper batter or remain silent prior to the at bat. I'm a scorekeeper & announcer & I sometimes announce the next batter w/o looking to see who's "up". (Being busy w/the book & scoreboard, y'know multi-tasking.)

Tourney sub question- the LL rule book says only that a starter & sub must enter & re-enter in the same spot (which is different than reg season). The question is- if both players have fulfilled their mandatory play, can there be "offense & defense, and in some cases base running" substitutions with these two players. (After both fulfill mandatory play, player A bats & player B re-enters for defense or runs for player A.) The LL rule book does not address this issue.

The announcer should announce the player stepping into the batting box and then "let the chips fall".

The answer to your substitution question is yes. Once both players have completed mandatory play, they can freely be subbed for each other. AND I noticed it also does not stipulate that the starter has to have met mandatory play before the coach can start doing that.

Rita

LilLeaguer

Rich Ives wrote
BOO is not a protestable event so this doesn't apply.

The scorekeeper is forbidden to call it to anyone's attention. The umpires are forbidden to call it to anyone's attention. It is specifically the defense's job to notice it. See 6.07 Note:

In OBR the scorekeeper prohibition is in rule 10. It's not just a LL rule.

Everybody in this thread agrees with that. Even the original poster knew this, but was curious about which way to avoid calling attention to BOO.

My point was different, small, and probably LL specific. It certainly isn't worth a third attempt to clarify.

I'll call this on myself. WOBW.

Rita C

mbcrowder wrote
Don't understand why you posted this. You post something inapplicable to the situation, and then mention why it does not apply. Very odd.

Your 2nd paragraph is spot on. Regarding the first, I'd ask you to read the section of the book regardin scorekeeper duties. Yes - you're an "official". But it WOULD be out of line to bring up BOO or in any way cause it to be noticed.

He is correct that the scorekeeper is expected to catch illegal or ineligible substitutions in Little League to prevent a possible protest. BOO is not one of these.

Some examples might be: A catcher who has caught four innings is ineligible to pitch. A substitute who has not yet batted and the starter he subbed for comes up to bat. The scorekeeper is required to question these if they happen if they catch it.

Rita

Rita C

Rich Ives wrote
BOO is not a protestable event so this doesn't apply.

The scorekeeper is forbidden to call it to anyone's attention. The umpires are forbidden to call it to anyone's attention. It is specifically the defense's job to notice it. See 6.07 Note:

In OBR the scorekeeper prohibition is in rule 10. It's not just a LL rule.

And he did point that out, Rich.

Rita

Rita C

LilLeaguer wrote
Everybody in this thread agrees with that. Even the original poster knew this, but was curious about which way to avoid calling attention to BOO.

My point was different, small, and probably LL specific. It certainly isn't worth a third attempt to clarify.

I'll call this on myself. WOBW.

I got it.

Rita

Rich Ives

Rita C wrote
And he did point that out, Rich.

Rita

He pointed out that it wasn't protestable.

He didn't point out the rules requiring silence which needed to be there as others were trying to understand the scorekeepers role. Perhaps I should have made it a separate post. Sorry if I somehow offended.

Rita C

Rich Ives wrote
He pointed out that it wasn't protestable.

He didn't point out the rules requiring silence which needed to be there as others were trying to understand the scorekeepers role. Perhaps I should have made it a separate post. Sorry if I somehow offended.

Got it. No offense taken. Not by me anyway.

Rita

LilLeaguer

Rich Ives wrote
Sorry if I somehow offended.

No offense taken by me.

aceholleran

Once A + B have fulfilled mandatory play, they can be subbed in and out at any point. Of course, this does not apply if either player is the pitcher.

Ace in CT