protest play???
 

Runner on 2nd base 2 outs, batter is called out at 1st but runner on second rounds third and trots across the plate. Offensive coach calls for appeal on runner at first saying firstbaseman had foot off the bag. Base ump confirs with plate ump whom then reverses the call, runner safe at first and ALSO allowed the run from third to score. Now the protest is more centered on the fact the run was allowed to count,HOWEVER, the play started with an appeal on a judgement call.

How far do you peel this onion if it gets peeled at all. Is the run allowed to score because the umpire jeopordized the situation with incorrect call on judgement play??????

There is no onion to peel. R2 ran the bases in correct order during live ball and it was up to the defense to do something about it. The call at 1st on the BR was a legit call. What is wrong is that the PU reversed the call when it should have been the BU who changes his own call.

Just because a call goes against you, doesn't mean everything stops. R2's run counts, the fiasco at 1st has the BR on 1st. Your team should have been paying attention to R2 and made a play on him rather than everyone Watching F3's foot.

How's that answer, coach?

I'll start on this assuming we are working under an OBR rule set.

a) By definition an APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming violation of the rules by the offensive team (rule 2.00 definitions). What was described in the OP was NOT an appeal (at least a valid one). Offenses don't appeal, they just complain about a judgment call (usually to no avail).

b) As OZZY6900 pointed out, if BU makes the call, then it's BU who reverses the call. He may ask for a second opinion from HP if he wishes but it's his and ONLY his baby.

Ozzy I need to put some clarity into this that I missed originally. Runner on second crossed the plate after original out call was made. The ensuing appeal of foot off base allowede him to cross the plate. So technically his run to plate ended when out call was made....not?

I have to disagree. The third out was assumed when the BU called BR out. There was no reason for the defense to make a play on R2 at home.

IF (and that's a big if) this situation happens on my field, we're putting R2 back on 3B. His scoring without a play being made was the BU's fault, not the defense.

+1

Under FED rules, if a call is reversed, umpires are supposed to correct any other actions that result from the reversed call. In this case, that *could* include returning R2 to third.

There's no specific guidance under OBR, but the FED philosophy on this is generally seen as "more fair" in most youth groups / leagues.

Did you quote my actual quote or rewrite it? I find it odd that all of my uppercase letters (except the first letter in the sentence) was dropped; never seen that here.

It happens regularly, actually.

Probably not correct.

The PU didn't reverse the call, the BU got more information, and reversed his own call. That's how I read it.

If the BR had gone in the dugout, after being called out, would you then call him out for abandonment? Nope. He gets to come out of the dugout, and stand on first.

The tricky part is R2. You have a relaxed play when the third out is called. But R2 hadn't hit the dish yet. I believe that the umpires are allowed to "fix" this however they see fit. And that might mean putting R2 on third.

So what is your answer if the runner rounds 3rd, sees that the b/r is out at 1st and heads to the dugout? Do you call him out for abandonment?

Why would you? The BR made the third out.

I suspect that the umpires had poor mechanics (beyond the PU "overruling" his partner). They should have done it this way:

BU: (to PU, after the play at 1B) Did he have the base?
PU: No!
BU: Then he's safe!

Alternatively, if the BU is unaware of the pulled foot, PU calls time immediately at the end of playing action to share his information and allow the BU to decide whether to change the call. Once time is called, everyone's going to stand around on their bases and look at the umpires.

It was the 3rd out until the call was changed to safe. I think you put the runner on 3rd and negate what happened after the "3rd" out was made.

If handled as I recommended, this step would be unnecessary.

OK guys I believe we have an agreement that runner should return to 3rd base. I was not at game I am handling this to get some infeed for interp at an upcoming meeting concerning this play. My feelings are, once the offensive coach started carping about getting help when does play become dead. Base ump cannot serve two masters i.e. base runner advancing and getting help from partner for call at first.

My feeling is, once he called runner out at 1st all play ends. It is like any normal 3rd out call what happens defense rolls ball to the mound and trots off. Now you have a reversal and time certainly had to be dead to do this. So unless this guy was a superhuman speedster you know darn well he has 3rd and thats as far as it goes. He had to be coming home as umps were discussing or overturning play at 1st. By the way the defense was protesting runner allowed to score not the reversal of 1st base. And they agreed to the settlement that runner will go back to third and game will resume from point of protest which was the first inning. I thank all who jumped on this to help me out it was greatly appreciated.

Wait a second. We are saying that he CAN return him to 3rd. He CAN also score him if he sees fit. This is a play where the umpires can do whatever they want to fix the problem, use "the hand of God".

It is entirely within their judgment and if they scored the run and a protest came, it is their judgment that is being protested.

Think about the can of worms you are opening if you allow this protest to result in an overturn. Where does it end?

It's not impossible for the protest to result in an overturn. However, as you infer, it's critical that the committee dissect the difference between the umpire's RULE usage, and his/their judgement.

If, upon talking to the umpire, they learn that the umpires did discuss whether the run would have scored or not had the call at first been made at the normal time - we have no protest.

If, instead, the umpires were unaware that this was even an option and ALSO they state that they feel the runner would not have scored had the call been made at the normal time - this is protestable and overturnable.

[QUOTE]OBR 9.02(c)

If the umpires consult after a play and change a call that had
been made, then they have the authority to take all steps that they may deem necessary, in their discretion, to eliminate the results and consequences of the earlier call that they are reversing, including placing
runners where they think those runners would have been after the play,
had the ultimate call been made as the initial call.

Since the umpires awarded the run the run stands because on a call reversal, it is umpire discretion as to where to place runners.

In FED, there is a specific rule to govern this and in all likelyhood R3 would be returned to 3rd base.

SIDE NOTE: You can do what you will but in PRE-GAME make it clear that if your partner needs help do it right away. If there is some time like this case then DO NOT reverse the call or even bother asking at this point.

Pete Booth