Throwing the Bat - LL
 

Got pressed into service last night for LL to help out a friend. I probably screwed up here and was too lenient... but:

What are the rules in LL surrounding a player throwing a bat. Can you call outs? Can you eject? Is there a specific number of warnings for this, and is it by player or by team?

I'm referring to the careless toss of the bat after contact - flinging it either to the backstop or into the catcher (who had no play on the ball).

You cannot call some one out for throwing a bat. PERIOD. It is protestable and the protesting team should win. DON"T DO IT; it only perpetuates the myth.

Warn the player, if they do it again, Eject. At the LL ages don't make a big deal about the ejection. Just tell the manager the player is removed from the game. At this age I would (my opinion) keep the warnings to individual players.

I await further replies... but if all that is accurate, I didn't do anything incorrectly, except perhaps the final warning...

The problem arose when, after 1 such throw I asked the coach to remind his player to be less careless with the bat. When the very next batter plunked the catcher with a bat, I went to the head coach in earshot of the dugout and told him, "Coach, that's the 2nd batter in a row that's thrown a bat. Please remind them not to do that." He did so...

Very next batter threw one to the fence. When the play ended, I went over, stood at the bat, got coach's attention so that he saw where it landed. He was pretty vocal in admonishing his team at that point.

But ... the very NEXT batter did it as well. 4 in a row. After the play ended, I told the coach, loud enough for the dugout to hear - coach, next flung bat is ejected. Period. Someone's going to get hurt.

Miraculously, that somehow fixed the problem.

Our guidance from Williamsport is warn, and eject.

Now the problem is that an ejection carries with it a one game suspension, and most level headed folks think the suspension is pretty harsh for a non-intentional act. What most do is warn the individual, then tell the coach to pull him from the lineup.

But four in a row it pretty odd(and spooky), and I think your proclamation was warrented. Hell, it worked, didn't it?

What if this doesn't match minimum-play rules? Let's say VT's lead-off hitter throws the bat on the first at-bat. Team bats around and he does it again. You have coach pull him from the lineup.

VT wins, but HC protests (or whatever you do) that minimum-play wasn't completed on VT's lead-off.

It's the same as a kid coming out of the game for an injury. No penalty for missing MPR.

You're telling a coach to pull a kid from his lineup, but it's not considered an ejection? Odd.

If your guidance is warn then eject, what are people doing requesting the player be pulled from the lineup? If the player was warned, then it is an ejection - plain and simple. Why are people complicating this simple procedure?

Warn then eject!

Because it's Little League. Almost as bad as Fed.

Ejection is harsh for a nonvoluntary act, as it carries the one game suspension.

"Coach, number seven is done for the day. You pull him, or I eject him. Your choice".

And if a coach pulls him, and tries to reenter him later in the game, eject the coach.

It's pretty simple. No need to go Ozzy on the little kids.

You're ejecting the coach for what exactly, a legal substitution? If you don't want the player to continue to participate in that game, eject him. Otherwise don't. But you have no authority to demand a substitution of a player who has not been ejected.

Honestly? I don't have the authority to eject a coach for unsportsmanlike conduct? I give him a chance to save a player from an ejection, and he ignores it (not that it's ever happened to me).

Yeah, he'd go for UC. And we'll see what his replacement wants to do.

The point is it's not unsporting conduct. You, as umpire, have tried to circumvent the rules and then when it doesn't work you compound your error by ejecting the coach for no reason.

If I was his replacement, what I would do is file a protest and lodge a formal complaint over your conduct. Oh yeah, and inform you of the substitution I'm about to make.

Seems to me you're inventing your own rules. You tell him to choose between ejecting the kid (which is what the rule says, apparently) and putting him on the bench. But then you have an unspoken caveat that the kid has to stay out or you'll judge it USC on the coach? Why can't he do that? Kid's not ejected and has a reentry left.

Seems LL has put on paper what they want the penalty to be - if they wanted a less harsh penalty than sitting out the rest of the game and the next one, they'd have written it that way.

This sounds like a football referee not calling certain penalties simply because he personally feels the penalty is too harsh - nevermind that this is what the rulesmakers put there.

Easy now, fellas. WP is in agreement with the procedure of benching the kid, instead of the EJ. There's just no current mechanism for it.

So what's the beef with dumping the manager who tries to roll you? Would it be better to just eject the player instead, which in most people's opinion, is way too harsh? So the umpire is trying to be nice, and keep the kid from having to stay home for the next game, and the manager tries to take advantage of it? Well gents, that's pretty unsportsmanlike.

If the next guy wants to play that game, I guess that kid wasn't actually sick/injured/benched after all. He was ejected.

Next.

And not that it's ever come to that. I've only had it come up a couple of times over the years. The managers were appriciative of having that option, and thanked me. Nobody in their right mind wants to eject a little kid over this, 'cause that's who does this sort of stuff. It's not HS kids, or other teenagers. It's 9 year olds. Ejecting an 9 year old for stuff like this will sour his baseball experience, and that of his folks. No need for it.

I didn't realize we officiated the game on people's opinions.

I agree, WP says to eject him. After all, that's how you, as an umpire, bench a kid.

The coach isn't rolling you, because there is no "mechanism" for permanently benching a player other than ejection which you did not do. You, the umpire, are the one breaking (well, ignoring) rules. Maybe you should eject yourself?

Philosophically, I agree that ejection for this at this age is harsh. I also have a problem with baseball not having an intermediate step before ejection like the yellow card in soccer. However, this is a change that has to be made at a much higher level than the umpire on the field. Your way is just a renegade umpire ignoring the rules.

Some here do. Ever seen any of the 'expected call' threads? Those umpires espouse calling the play based on what people expect should happen. I've never been comfortable with that type of thinking.

Really? You have direction and you choose not to use it so that makes you a total fool. This is why LL is so F'd up because you have rules and no one follows them.

And you can kiss my back side with that comment!

I'm just using common sense, and what WP blessed me to do.

If you fellas want to eject little kids over this, you've also got their blessing. Knock yourselfs out.

Again, not that I anticipate it ever coming to that. I'm not sitting the kids down, just recommending the managers do it. Instead of being jackballs about it, they thank me for that option.

Ozzy, don't blow a gasket there, kid.

You're not working these games, so don't worry about it. We're talking little kids, as they're the ones flinging bats. Eight, nine, ten year olds in the LL minors. I work down there becuase I train a lot of Junior umpires. And I'll bet none of the rest of you are, either. So simmer down, y'all.

It's really easy to "Dump the little *******s" when you don't work at that level. But when you are an integral part of a local league, and not just an umpire, you want what's best for everyone involved. Making an eight year old sit out a game because of an accidental release is stupid. Most folks would agree with that.

Got proof of this "agreement"? Seems like you're grasping at straws.

Nothing in hand. Just some Facebook conversations via their Discussion page. If you haven't been there, and work LL game, it's a huge source of information and direction directly from the horse's mouth.

Little League Baseball & Softball Discussions | Facebook

p.s. why are you guys so grumpy?

Ozzy, I agree with you. This is exactly why it's difficult to umpire these leagues. You have the rules so call it by the prescribed penalty and move on. I bet the next time little Johnny is up to bat, he doesn't carelessly throw the bat.

-Josh

OK, fair enough if true. How do we know they are in agreement with it, considering they did not put it in the rulebook, and have likely had numerous opportunities to do so.

I great you that I don't work LL (well, until last night!). I can't think if an instance in my other rulesets that I do consistently work where I would need to or want to tap-dance around the rules like this. But it seems to me that once the umpire has decided to "be nice" and not enforce a particular rule, he can't really call it unsportsmanlike if the manager takes advantage of that niceness.

I can't even imagine the S-Storm if this sort of thing happened and I wanted to retroactively eject someone for something that happened 2 innings ago. (At least ... in any other rule-set). I know for fact that my assignor would be so far down my throat I'd be choking on feet.

Honestly, I agree with this in principle. So why wouldn't WP, if they agreed, simply fix the rules so that umpires are not in this bizarre semi-rule-enforcing potentially-retroactive-ejecting netherland in this particular situation?

Some of us LL geezers have been banging on WP for the administrative removal for years. Some day.

Sorry, Ozzy, but in the interest of fair and accurate reporting, the actual correct terminology is "going Ozzy" on someone. I checked. Your photo is right next to the definition.:p

East County, thanks for checking in.

La Jolla to Jacumba, from Tijuana to the Canadian Rockies, your reaction! I want to talk sports with you.

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townn...9db8.image.jpg

I am also a LL geezer and have no problem having a kid miss a game for this. Maybe that will finally break him of the bat-throwing habit. Or make it important enough for the coach to deal with it.

How about, if the coach puts the kid back in, you let him, then follow through on the ejection.

Ejection Report:

I don't think that would go over well in any well-run league.

+1

My point exactly.

OK, you're kind of making my point now. If you've been "banging on" them - and they've not done it... maybe they DON'T sanction what you're proposing.

I REALLY don't think some semi-anonymous commentary on Facebook is going to hold water when my assignor asks me what I was thinking when I ejected a coach for a legal reentry after I failed to properly administer the rules of the game - especially when that ejection gets protested and starts heading up the chain.

Well - it was first suggested by their at-the-time UIC. In writing. Before Facebook. It's still being pushed by the rank and file. Time will tell.

The real problem from a rules perspective is that it should probably be treated differently for an 8 yr old who hasn't learned yet and a 15 year old who should definitely know better. That's why the AR option should be there.

It seems to me it's not the ejection that's the issue; it's the automatic one-game suspensions. Get rid of the automatic suspension and get a disciplinary committee instead.

I know leagues using OBR usually have some sort of supplemental rule regarding throwing bats, but do the OBR rules themselves mention it?

Not in the sense it's used in this thread

No.

I ended a LL tournament game last season when a team with 9 players helicoptered his bat to the fence after striking out. (Umpires suspend in LL, the powers that be decide on the forfeit.)

I know this is a different situation, but I've never let the number of players or the consequences to the player guide my decision on ejecting or not ejecting. If most people think a suspension is unfair, they'll change that rule. If not, then players and coaches must be mindful that actions have consequences.

Josh, I fought this problem back in the 1970's when I actually officiated LL. Somewhere in the early 1980's, Williamsport decreed the exact same thing that they say now, warn then eject. The ejection is under Unsportsmanlike Conduct which is a valid rule that an official is supposed to use when it is needed.

My beef with some people on this board is that they put on the uniform and follow the rules until it requires the official to have the balls to do what has to be done. Many of these officials pussy-foot around so that when these little tykes get on the big diamond, they don't understand why they have been allowed to do this stuff for 12 years and suddenly, here comes Ozzy, kicking the twerp's a$$ out of the game for the very thing that should have been stopped years ago!

Oz, maybe we're talking about two different things here.

If a player flings a bat in anger, he's gone. No warning. Adios.

But I'm talking about an involuntary release of the bat. Kinda like a helmet that's too big flying off a runners head. That lid may fly off a couple times a game, and you can tell a manager to get a better fitting helmet, you surely wouldn't eject a player over it, and have him sit out another game to boot.

I don't do a lot of youth leagues anymore because I seem like the a$$hole half the time because I do enforce the rules as intended.

IE. I had a situation my first weekend out with 10 y/o's. The little tike came barreling home and attempted to run through the catcher to dislodge the ball. Unfortunately, for the runner, he was the smallest guy on the field and the catcher was the biggest. I called time when the MC occurred, ruled the runner was out, and (without showing anyone up) disqualified the player (no words, just a calm signal). The play ended the inning and I walked over to the offenders bench. "Coach, 12 has been disqualified for the play at home." Coaches response, "Ok I understand why. Can you explain to him what he did and what he should have done?" "Absolutely, I need to go inform the other coach and I'll do it at the next half inning, ok?" "No problem" Went over after the next half inning and explained the options to the player and coaches. They appreciated it a lot and hope it minimized damage in the future.

If it were a HS Var game I would let the coach explain to his players but since it was asked nicely and everyone was learning, it wasn't a problem.

In basketball, some of the youth assigners have chosen in the past to not assign me for tourney's (which I respect their right to do that). Usually it's a result of me giving a technical (or two) to a coach or asking a coach/administrator to have a parent leave after they've made a fool of themselves. The subsequent complaint precipitate me not getting a call. Ironically enough it takes a few tourneys without me and they realize that if there isn't that discipline, their tourney turn into a gong show.

If it's not acceptable in high school, then it's not acceptable in youth leagues either.

-Josh

Yeah, makes sense. I'm thinking of a situation in youth basketball where I might suggest a coach pull a kid rather than deal with it myself.

1. I can't force him to do it.

2. If he does and later puts him back in, I'm not going to eject a kid in the 3rd quarter for an inadvertently hard foul in the 2nd. If I didn't pull the trigger then, I've given him a 2nd chance.

I worked some youth football like that when I moved here about 10 years ago. Threw some USC flags on coaches that were out of control and was told that they'd rather have officials that let coaches alone. Hey, they can enjoy their clown car and I can enjoy my Saturdays.

"Involuntary release of the bat"

Can someone please explain what this term means? I think the batter is purposely releasing the bat. It didn't slip out of his hands, he intentionally released the bat. What he did was carelessly release the bat not involuntarily release.

Sorry, it's my grippe of the day

-Josh

1+

-Josh

Right. Those bats the pros throw into the stands are thrown into the stands on purpose.

Same in LL. Couldn't possibly have slipped - had to have been on purpose.

Kyle, is there a rule in LL that prescribes a runner to be ejected when his helmet falls off?

I think you're introducing oranges into the apple debate.

I didn't say that the bat could not have slipped in LL. What I'm pointing out is that a bat that is carelessly throw for four consecutive batters cannot possibly be an "involuntary" release. I give the kid the benefit of the doubt the first time it happens. Sometimes the bat gets away, we see it in the majors. But if it's an obvious habit of carelessly throwing the bat (ie thrown backwards multiple times by the same batter or a series of batters), don't call it involuntary. If it's raining or something, stop the game because it's no longer safe to play. By all means, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

-Josh

Having not done LL in a dozen years, I'm surprised the words "administrative removal" have not arisen.

Ah, the conspiracy theory. That's a new one.

Four batters in a row throw the bat on purpose, in your opinion. Yeah, I'd throw the manager out if I thought those guided missiles were intentional.

Look fellas, if you thing for one minute that a batter is trying to fling his bat to gain some sort of advantage, eject him right away. I'm just talking about little kids, who aren't doing this on purpose.

I think the point he was trying to make is that the team was not exercising sufficient care. Even non-purposeful bat flings are incredibly rare, to the extent that I see fewer than 5 a season. To have 4 batter in a row lose their bat in a dangerous manner means they are not swinging so hard they can't hold on but are releasing the bat before they stop their swing.

Since releasing their bat is a purposeful action, it's not wrong to describe the bat flinging as purposeful even though it is not meant to endanger.

How 'bout four hit batters in a row? Same difference, eh?

No.

No, and I think you already knew that.

Hey, it was worth a shot.

Look, we're talking about an accidental act. Me, I don't want to eject a little kid over this. I'll give the manager the courtesy of pulling him, instead. If the manager wishes to step on my courtesy, by trying to insert the player later in the game, I can choose to courtesy him from the game. I don't see the problem.

Again, I've only had this come up a couple of times over 12 years, and the managers were thankful to have the option.

Maybe I just work where there are not a lot of jackballs who would try to take advantage of a sitution like this. If you live in such an area, feel free to go by Little League's guidance, and eject the little miscreants.

For rec league, I normally issue a warning to the team of the offender(especially if the catcher gets hurt) and 99% of the time the coaches will agree with you that the kids can't be throwing the bats. If it happens again, I'll call the kid out. But for travel I normally just ask the coach after the inning to talk to his team, and they normally do.

Which rule allows you to call the kid out? You can't make stuff up to suit your purpose unless the league you work for has such a rule in place. LL doesn't.

Good. Always good to invent rules to suit your purposes.

Is missing a game a LL rule, or League rule, I dont' know because no LL around here. For small leagues around here it a league rule. Most around here it is a league rule. What other league rules don't we like so will not enforce?

What if little Johnny pitches bat in 6th innning? If he misses rest of that game only, what did he learn? Hanging onto the bat is not hard to do, most everyone else in the league can.

The game suspension is mandatory on an ejection.

LL has given the umpire guidance (it's not a rule) to warn, and eject errant bat flingers.

They've also given us (also not a rule) the option of having the manager remove the player from the game, to avoid the suspension.

You'd think that with all that "guidance" they could go ahead and make a rule. :rolleyes:

I ejected one LL player last season. He struck out and helicoptered his bat to the fence. Team only had 9 players. Saved me about 2 additional hours of umpiring.

Intentionally firing your bat is entirely different. They get dumped, no matter what.

Agreed.

I guess my LL experience is a bit skewed -- I don't work small diamond in the regular season. By the time I get the kids (in Juniors), they aren't flinging their bats.

I still think that the one way to stop the flinging is to warn than eject. After the kid sits a game, he won't fling anymore and the teammates will see that they can't do it and get away with it, either.

What I should have said is that the league I have worked for has such a rule in place. They've had a lot of issues with kids throwing bats.

If your league is indeed affiliated with Little League, a local rule would not be valid without a waiver from Williamsport. Can't change the playing rules on your own.

There not.

But that's what we're talking about here.