A First Time for Everything
 

Since I'm up filling out the online ejection form, figured I'd share the first I had tonight - first bench-clearer ever for me in my nine years.

Rivalry, conference game, always some tension in the air with these two teams, but no real issues heading into the 5th inning. Really, just a perfect storm happened - you've all seen the Pete Rose / Ray Fosse highlight - something kind of like that, though the runner wasn't horizontal like Pete, but did lead with the shoulder, so I've got malicious contact there. Then, the catcher rolls over the runner (they were still tangled up on the ground) and shoves him back down - BING! EJ #2, and here come the benches. I backed up and got out my card to begin writing down numbers.

To their credit, the coaching staffs for both teams did a good job keeping things from escalating into a full-blown melee. Neither me from behind the dirt circle nor my partner who had moved between the mound and home saw any other punches thrown or wrestling matches ensue, so we only had the two protagonists to dump. The catcher's coach wanted to suggest his guy was totally innocent - hogwash.

Next half inning, a close play at first got a little chippy, so I hauled the coaches back out to home, they got the message, and we finished up the rest of the game without issue. No handshakes after the game tonight between the teams.

All in all, I think we handled it about as well as we could have - on the drive home I kept trying to think about how I might have been able to pre-empt it, but it really was just one of those things - the perfect storm. Just glad it didn't get worse than it did, and that it settled down after that. Both teams' coaches and AD's actually sought us out and thanked us after the game for handling it as best we could. Don't want to see that again, though.

I've never been involved with a bench-clearing fight myself, but doesn't 3-3-1q (and it's penalty) state we have to eject any player that leaves the bench in these situations? In fact, 3.3.1OO states "once [a player leaves] their positions and [advances] toward the fight, they were in violation of the rule."

Yup. Same as in basketball. Go on the court from the bench and you're going to be ejected.

3-3-1q
 

You know, before I made the OP, I had a paragraph in there about applying that rule. Game would have been over, as EVERYBODY was on the field, so everybody would have been ejected. That thought definitely ran through my mind, and we discussed it before bringing the coaches together immediately after the tussle.

For me and my partner last night, it just didn't seem like THAT would have been the proper course of action. Maybe by rule it would have been, but to me, calling the game at that point would have not been right. Maybe you HTBT, it just didn't fit.

It is a HTBT, but one option is to "suspend" the game at that point, write the report and let the state (or conference, or league, or ...) decide whether to resume, or declare a double forfeit, or declare the team ahead the winner,

Bob's exactly right however, in this case (based upon the onfo mentioned), I
think you handled it quite nicely. Had fistacufs ensued, then you would have had to ej more bodies. Bottom line here , you did what you had to, to take control of the game and move on.

Thr rules give us plenty of leeway with penalties. Good officials, understand when to apply them. Good job.

They do?

3-3-1q: A ... player ... shall not leave their positions or bench area for the purpose of fighting or physical confrontation.
PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game.

3.1.1PP: R1 slides hard into F4. R1 and F4 begin pushing each other. F6 and the on-deck batter run to second base to break up the fight. RULING: All are ejected. Once F6 and the on-deck batter left their positions and advanced toward the fight, they were in violation of the rule.

I see no leeway in the penalty.

Totally agree with Yawetag. No one has presented any rationale why the rule should be ignored. This is a high school game for crying out loud! You want to teach a lesson - eject everyone and let them both forfeit their respective next games. I am not a big fan of FED but sometimes their "special" rules make a lot of sense as in the FPSL (see Swisher break twins F4 leg) and as in this case.

I agree. If the players participated in a fight, they're all ejected. Let the state or other governing body sort it all out after the fact.

In a state where automatic suspensions follow, the teams that follow these teams on the schedule have a legitimate gripe when "by rule" ejections are not enforced.

Hold on . . .

. . . shall not leave their positions or bench area for the purpose of fighting or physical confrontation

. . . F6 and the on-deck batter run to second base to break up the fight

How does trying to stop the fight qualify as fighting or physical confrontation? Or else the first wording above should be recast to say "and advance toward the fight."

Guaranteed, absoultely, as sure as my fingers pass over these keys to type I could attend each and every game you guys officiate and find some rule violation that you have overlooked, choose to ignor or just plan missed.

The op said "Neither me from behind the dirt circle nor my partner who had moved between the mound and home saw any other punches thrown or wrestling matches ensue, so we only had the two protagonists to dump"

So lets not get so technical for a job well done.

Your probably going to try and convince me next that every time you go over the speed limit you turn yourself in at the nearest local police station too.

The rules are there to cover most if not all scenarios of the game and establish a guideline and a level of fair play. The fact that discretion and judgement of the official is a big part of the rules, is and will alway be the leeway necessary to bring about fair play and game control. For this case I believe the officials did a good job.

"The fact that discretion and judgement of the official is a big part of the rules, is and will always be the leeway necessary to bring about fair play and game control. For this case I believe the officials did a good job."

I agree. Attempting to enforce an absolute, letter-of-the-law rule for everything that happens invariably produces injustices.

Baseball used to rely more on the ump as "God." Yes, there were rules, but there were also times when the ump simply made a decision, and that was that.

It reminds me of a recent article I read about British versus French law, where historically the British leaned more toward laying down general principles and trusting their judges to apply them properly and fairly. The French, on the other hand, tried to cover every possible contingency with a law.

You're probably going to try to convince me next that every time you go over the speed limit, you should turn yourself in at the nearest local police station, too.

Anybody seen that TV commercial in which, during a time out, the basketball player confesses to his coach and team that despite the ref's call, it should be the other team's ball? The coach praises the kid, who promptly approaches the official to make things right and fair.

I will admit that the OP didn't state, but implied, that the benches cleared.

I agree that the rules allow leeway in a lot of areas. It's even up to you to determine MC for ejection. However, leaving the bench during a fight is not one of them. The rules prescribe all players that leave their fielding position or the bench area are to be ejected. There is no leeway.

Do I think the umpires handled the situation well? Sure. They calmed the game down after the fact. However, their application of the rules was incorrect.

I believe you stated you'd never had a bench-clearing situation. Since I've now had one, I'll speak from my vast experience - I think dumping both entire teams, while correct by rule, would have been a misapplication in this instance. HTBT, for sure. Let me know what you do when it happens to you. I'd seriously like to know if this has ever been applied in this manner. I've never heard of it. I've heard of games suspended due to conflicts, but never entire teams ejected. Never.

I'll agree with what the rule says. I'll agree that, by rule, we misapplied the rule. I also agree that bench-clearing incidents have no place at all in HS baseball. I disagree, however, that dumping two teams in entirety would be correct, so therefore, I disagree with the rule as written.

First, our state has an automatic two-game suspension for any player that is ejected. I can see them upholding these suspensions for the two players involved in this incident (or any others engaged in fighting - believe me, I would have dumped anybody observed throwing a punch, shove, or elbow) - under zero circumstances can I see them upholding the forfeiture of the next two games for these two teams. It just would not happen.

I'd really like to hear from those who've had these situations, and how they handled them. Otherwise, I'm about fed up with those of you who'd say "by rule, the whole team has to go. An example needs to be set." By the book, you're right. In reality, I don't think it would happen - not by any of you. Maybe I'm wrong - prove it.

Please elaborate, what does "catcher rolls over the runner" mean exactly? I would be hard pressed to toss an F2 who just got malicous run over, unless he threw punches.

You're wrong as far as I'm concerned. If we had a bench clearing brawl, I'd look at the benches and those players still in the bench area would still be in the game. If we were under the minimum required to keep the game going, we'd be done.

The NFHS does not want people leaving the bench or their positions to confront one another. Period. In any sport. The penalties are sever so we don't have that happen except in the rarest of occasions.

Locally we had a boys varsity basketball game where all the bench personnel were ejected for this reason. The only players eligible were the ones on the court that didn't get in a scrap. Those officials later in the season worked the state tournament.

I didn't realize we got to ignore rules we disagree with.

Mandatory suspensions, whether upheld or not, should have NO bearing in how you handle a situation. If, after ejecting and writing reports, the state wants to allow some kids to keep playing, that's up to the state. Don't do their work while standing on the field.

It would by me. You're right in that I've never had one. However, my association has said multiple times that you eject every player that leaves their position or the bench. In fact, Rich's statement of keeping track of the players that DON'T get involved is EXACTLY how it's been told multiple times during training classes.

If I ever have one (and hopefully I never will), I will have no problem in dumping everyone involved, ending the game if there's not enough players, and leaving the field. I'll file reports to the state and my association as mandated, and I'll cooperate with both as needed. I couldn't care less who gets suspended from games and who doesn't.

"I'm taking my ball and going home!"

You left out half the rule. An EJ is mandated for players who leave their positions or the bench for the purpose of fighting or physical confrontation. There is plenty of leeway.

Not exactly. Read the case play I gave above (bolding mine): "Once F6 and the on-deck batter left their positions and advanced toward the fight, they were in violation of the rule. Both F6 and on-deck batter were going to break up the fight, but they're still ejected. I think we'd all agree they weren't there for the purpose of fighting or physical confrontation.

In addition: 3.3.1QQ: R1 and F6 begin shoving each other. Their respective coaches rush to the field to control their players. RULING: R1 and F6 are ejected, but the coaches are not, because they are allowed on the field to break up the fight or to help restore order.

Coaches are explicitly allowed to break up a fight, but players are explicitly ejected when advancing toward one.

A fight breaks out at 2nd base after a hard slide. Players pop out of the dugout to get a better view of the action, but go no farther. They obviously have no intention of joining the fray. Are you dumping all of them?

Define "pop out." Just outside the bench and doing nothing else? Of course not. They're not "advancing toward the fight."

I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that OP's benches cleared and a lot of players came out on the field -- an assumption that was made clear by those of us on the ejection side, and one that hasn't been denied by OP.

Then I think we're on the same page.

From one of your posts: "The rules prescribe all players that leave their fielding position or the bench area are to be ejected. There is no leeway."

I inferred (incorrectly, I guess) that you would eject anyone who left the bench regardless of their intent or subsequent actions (if any). That would be contrary to the rule.

Aftermath
 

First, to yawetag: Sorry for my abrupt response(s) - I was (and to some degree) still hyped up about this sitch.

Overall, we certainly erred in our leniency, and certainly will handle it much more punitively next time as several of you rightly suggested. After the benefit of video review (not by me, by the state association), multiple players from each team have been suspended. My partner and I have been sufficiently admonished, but not suspended as of this writing. Our local association might still weigh in on this, and I'm OK with whatever they decide.

In retrospect, as these situations often do, it happened very quickly - probably less than 30 seconds from the initial collision to the emptying of the benches to the coaches regaining control of their teams and heading them back to the dugouts. During that time, I had pulled out my lineup card and began writing down numbers, but literally only got three numbers written down before the coaches got into the fray and began separating the players.

The best course of action I could have taken was to suspend the game immediately - as Bob Jenkins mentioned in his early post. We did not do this. Even in the absence of multiple ejections, this would have made for a better handling of the overall situation. Let the administrative types sort it out, because there's always somebody with video these days.

It's these types of situations that ultimately make us better equipped to handle other situations. A lifetime of learning. I'll continue to kick myself for kicking this one, at least in terms of game management.

On a twist of irony, I get these teams again this week - one Friday, one Saturday. Not that the sitch was my fault to begin with. I am interested to see what one of the coaches has to say after his comments in the paper.

That's a great post, SCB. You've clearly had a lot to deal with and reflected on the lessons of your case. Thank you for posting it!

Again it was a HTBT situation but I think you are jumping to an unfair conclusion when you automatically eject anyone who comes out in that situation. The rule IS clear and again states they must be coming out "for the purpose of fighting or physical confrontation." Are you suggesting that the player who "steps" out of the dugout and takes 2 steps in the direction of whats going on is ejected as well? Because according to some who have posted that "is" the rule. IMO I think it was handled very well. Step back, take numbers and apply penalties.

As far as losing games to having the entire team suspended, what I usually see state associations do is stagger the suspensions so the team has enough non-suspended players to play the scheduled game.

So half the team serves suspension during the first and second succeeding games and the other half on the third and fourth.

I don't. I have a suspended game and a full report on the bench clearing. No way I am going to put a bunch of hot headed, teen-aged rivals, whose coaches can't keep initial control of their teams, back out on the field, have somebody get hurt over and have my butt in a wringer.That's a fact, jackyawetag. :p

Always tough to swallow crow; well done. I know full well how it tastes.

For those that want to see a picture of the play that caused the benches clearing brawl and a story on the aftermath, here it is.

Now, while SC suspends players for one or two games TN takes real action on benches clearing brawl. 2 year postseason ban and a nice fat fine for the schools.

This is why you cannot go wrong with following the rules as they are written and intended. Glad this was posted and that some reflection was done to realize that an error was made. This is one rule I doubt the OPer will forget for sure. We have all been there on some level. Maybe not with a fight, but with other issues.

Peace

Interesting, I must say. Many want to go by the letter of the law and eject people who are preventing the situation from boiling over. Think about what happens when benches clear.

Most of the players are simply holding their own players back or holding back the other team. A lot of pushing and holding but for the most part, only a few are actually fighting. Even these pugilists are being restrained by coaches and other players until cooler heads prevail. In the four bench clearing incidents that occurred when I was on the field, only the actual combatants were ejected. No one on any of the crews wanted to invoke the rule to the letter as it would not do anything but cause more problems. Most of these people just prevented further problems, and some of you want to eject them?

Remember, part of being an umpire is the ability to interpret the rules. Any idiot can enforce a rule but it takes an umpire to bring intelligence to a situation.

It keeps getting more interesting...
 

So, our local paper, which was covering that game that night anyway, usually posts the photo galleries online afterward - they never posted this one...until now, since another 8 players were suspended by the state high school league and it is now apparently OK for them to post the pictures (albeit a bit out of order for a little journalistic sensationalism).

Baseball: Dorman Boiling Springs players suspended. > Spartanburg Herald Journal > Sports photos > Photo 1 of 30

The photos don't really show the bench-clearing incident, so I suppose they still held them back. They do show the home coach arguing that I shouldn't eject the catcher for retaliating, which the catcher did right after the picture showing the runner looking up after the collision to see the call (pic 10). The ra...er coach was arguing that his guy couldn't have retaliated as he and the runner never separated. I told him he was wrong, and now have the photo to prove it. Right about the time of the second photo of our conversation I gave him his warning and he walked off the field, claiming he wanted to protest the game (he likes to protest games, even for non-protestable calls - sort of his MO). Since I have his team again Saturday, should be an interesting conversation. :D

Supposedly, the state obtained a video shot by a grandparent and that's what has brought about the further suspensions (essentially, they are suspending anybody they see having been on the field near the fracas). I've requested the video, and it is being sent. Should be interesting. I'm really ready for this one to be over.

I loved the pic with the coach in background signaling out!!! Just remember that "the letter of the law killeth" even in baseball...

Surely not. :eek: No offense intended to you, this incident isn't your fault, but who the hell is doing your assigning? Karl Klownbrains? If I could not find a suitable game for you elsewhere, I'd pay you and your partner to sit at home.

That sounds great and all that bravado is wonderful, but that is not the intent of the rules in this situation. This actually has little origins in umpiring, this has origins in an overall philosophy of the NF that creates the rules (and yes there is an overall philosophy on NF rules in many areas). And in every rules set in every sport I am aware of that the NF is responsible for, you leave the bench when a fight goes on you are ejected. No exceptions and no other interpretation needed. This is not the Majors or pro ball. And this mentality that we have to make decisions as umpires to decide is not what the rule intends at this level. I have never had a bench clearing brawl in baseball, but I have had one in football. Not fun and we did not give anyone a pass that we could identify came off the bench. And almost every pro sport has a similar position as the NF does on these matters and funny no one fights coming off the bench other than baseball. Yes there are players that can come off the bench and realistically help stop the fight, but the more people involved the more likely something will escalate. Just ask Kermit Washington about this what good it does to have people flying at you in a brawl.

Peace

I have to agree here. In my mind, you're not officiating either team for at least the remainder of this year. If I can, you'll get equal games elsewhere; if not, you'll be paid from the organization.

No way am I putting my umpire in the line of fire.

Assignment
 

I don't really have a problem facing either team. I think they're big boys and understand it's not my fault. One coach is a standup guy and called me a couple of nights ago to discuss it, and that went very well and he was very contrite and admitted his team was primarily at fault. The other coach I don't expect a call from, but I don't feel the need to run away from either team. I thought about getting my assignments changed (they are done about 3 weeks in advance or more), but decided to stick with it - what did I do wrong?

If anything, I really expect the upcoming games to be about as quiet as possible - heck, one team has 14 players suspended, so essentially, they'll be playing their JV against the opposing varsity.

Pigs fly. Hell Frozen Over. Intelligence found in Washington. I agree with STB on something. Film at 11.

I know that from your POV, giving up the games would feel wrong - make you feel like you ran from possible confrontation. However, I think you should err on the side of prudence here. Considering this backdrop behind the game, even the most minute perceived slight against this team is going to be taken in the worst possible light.

It's similar to working games with our children in them. WE know we could do it fairly... but the perception is that we won't - and the first time a call goes against the other team, the "he's favoring his kids" banner will start flying.

Defuse this and work elsewhere.

Well, already been reassigned for tonight - I assume tomorrow as well. Suitable alternative game, and I actually get to do a base game (nine of the last ten have been been plate jobs).

I do not see the big deal. Either way you did nothing wrong and if you do not work this game, you will have them in the future. Sometimes they need to see the same people so they know what they will get. If you are OK with it, then that is all that matters. It would be one thing if you ejected the coach over some other issue, but the teams had the problem and got ejected not you. I think we do too many things to avoid conflict when the reality is it is going to be there no matter what.

Peace

No, no, this isn't about your courage, you have already displayed a bucketload of that. This is about safety, liability, needless exposure...you have become a magnet for emotional uprisings! No one benefits, everyone loses, if you take the field against either of these teams.

Yes, you have been screwed tight by nothing that is in the end-all your fault. :(

Got switched last night to another game, and called my assignor (who said he was about to call me to see about doing the same) and turned in the game today with the other team. Actually feels about right, in retrospect.

I have no problem with that, but you cannot run from a coach or team (in baseball especially) all the time. MLB Umpires still have teams they have had situations with and this was not one of them that you caused, you just happen to be on the game. If you are happy with the situation and the way it was handled fine. I have an assignor that will keep you on games even if you had problems with that team or coach from time to time. We should all be professional no matter what. And in baseball games change daily based on rescheduling so it always seems to happen that I will have to work a place I would prefer not to so a game can be covered.

Peace

I suppose you read my earlier comments about not being afraid to do these games? Anyway, since the state association felt like it was best for me to not do the first game with team A, I felt like I should go ahead and turn in the second game just to keep things on an even keel. I have both of these teams on my schedule again, and will likely see one or both in the playoffs as well. As they say in these parts, I ain't skeered!