|
3rd to 1st move
Very Elementary, sorry just need clarification. On 1st to third move, Pitcher steps to third and feints a throw, ball can stay in glove correct?
|
Jflores,
On a 1st to 3rd pickoff move by an engaged pitcher, I've got a balk every time, regardless of what he does with the ball. JM |
"Very elemantary" however, JM is right. Any feint to first will result in a balk, directly from the plate. Now if the pitcher happens to feint first towards third, then goes to first, the only requirement is a step to the bag. Arm motion is not required and therefore it doesn't matter where the ball is.
|
Quote:
The one additional caveat I might offer is that.... 1. If they are playing under FED rules, 2. And the pitcher remains "engaged" as he feints to 3rd then turns to 1st, 3. Then he MUST make a "legal step" AND throw on the move to 1st, 4. So, at some point, he's going to have take the ball out of his glove - and he'd best do it "continuously" and "without interruption". JM |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Michael,
While that does have a certain appeal to me, personally, I can't help but wonder what you would call should the pitcher... Quote:
Me, in an OBR or NCAA game, I would balk that in a New York minute. In a FED game, it's explicitly legal (though I have no idea why they thought this would be a good rule). So, if the F1 is given this "innovative" advantage, I would also hold him to the FED "constraint" should he make the same move, but fail to throw - a balk. JM |
Quote:
I actually think this is in the spirit of the rule. I don't see that F1 gets any advantage from the FED rule. An R1 who sees F1 move toward 3B and doesn't get back to 1B, IMO, richly deserves whatever he gets. |
Michael,
I doubt that we would enforce it differently if we saw the same thing. But I actually believe the language I quote from the text of the OBR rules describing a pitcher's illegal move does mean something. And, were you to use your imagination, I'm guessing you could picture a move where the pitcher does a "double step" off of his pivot foot - not a "normal" 3rd to 1st move, mind you - that you would deem violating both the letter and the spirit of the balk proscriptions as well. Go ahead. Wherever you are - your family room, some near-campus bar trying to pick up coeds, the library, whatever - just try it. Almost like a preliminary "jab step" towards 3B, only with the free foot instead of the pivot. Just enough to gain "distance and direction" in the direction of 3B with the free foot, but not enough to compromise your balance nor the leverage of your pivot foot as you then quickly "wheel" to 1B to pick off the runner there. As the famous umpire Thomas Stearns Eliot once sagely observed, Quote:
Because, of course, I'm right and you're wrong. ;) JM |
Sorry I am an idiot, meant third to first move. I would've edited the thread title but don't know how.
|
Quote:
|
Michael,
Why, thank you. :o To be fair, we here in Illinois generally consider his foot to have come off the rubber on the move to 3rd as well. ;) JM |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
It certainly is. And I would like to just "go on the record" and apologize to JFlores for taking shameless advantage of his innocent "typo" in order to shamelessly and gratuitously indulge my unfortunate penchant to engage in puerile sarcasm when it was perfectly clear from the "get go" what he was asking. I'm sorry. I just couldn't help it. :rolleyes: JM |
Quote:
The pitcher is not allowed by rule to step toward 3rd, and with practically the same motion spin and throw to 1st. Two separate moves are required, and the physics dictate that the pitcher has disengaged the rubber in order to satisfy that rule. |
Originally Posted by Simply The Best http://forum.officiating.com/images/...s/viewpost.gif
Why not call it properly? :confused: If the foot is engaged - balk. If not, no balk. Quote:
Hint: There are many, many others who have seen F1 feign to 3rd in contact with the rubber eventually turning and throwing to 1st. Try it. It's easy! ;) Call the game, don't succumb to accepting carte blanche umpire mythologies regardless of how often they are repeated! ;) |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I never accepted any "myths" about the game of baseball. This is not a myth, it's physics. In order to perform the move you describe, the pitcher would have to feign to 3rd, drag his pivot foot on the ground as he spins around to throw to 1st, and I've NEVER ONCE seen a pitcher do this. They 100% of the time lift their pivot foot off the rubber when turning to throw to 1st. I will let you know the VERY FIRST TIME I see someone stay in total contact with the rubber on this move. |
Quote:
As always, I blame the Jesuits! I actually had a "1st to 3rd" pick-off move in a game last year, and I'll tell ya', it was kind of WEIRD. Very early season HS Varsity game, around the 3rd inning, tall, lanky LHP on the mound, R1 & R3 with 1 out. I'm on the bases. The F1 initiates a decent move to 1B, and as I am stepping up and pivoting to call the play at 1st, he very "smoothly" fakes a throw to 1st and begins pivoting back to 3rd. As I am nimbly pivoting back towards 3rd following his motion, I am thinking something like, "Ahhh. The old 1st to 3rd... WTF? He can't do THAT!" before I manage to sputter, "THAT'S A BALK!" in a tone that might be characterized as "surprised indignation". Thankfully, the move had apparently "brain-locked" the OHC in the 3rd base coaching box a bit as well, because I managed to beat his outraged complaint by about a tenth of a second, and he morphed it into a "Thank YOU" that really conveyed more of a "About freakin' TIME" sense than any sort of true gratitude. PU never said "Jack". The pitcher just kind of "hung his head" and shook it in a "What was I thinking?" kind of way. Like I said, it was kind of weird. JM |
Quote:
The point is, imo, call this one according to the rule -- if (OBR?NCAA) F1 fails to come off the rubber, balk it. If (HS) F1 stays on the rubber and feints, balk it. Benefit of the doubt to the pitcher, though. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So you don't mind if I do not hold my breath or anxiously await your notification.;)</sds> |
Quote:
Quote:
|
The example shown in Evans Balk video is pretty clear, the pitcher faked then turned and threw to first without disengaging. In the example shown it is easy to see. In actual fact though, it rarely if ever happens that way, there is always space between foot and rubber on the feint and turn.
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19am. |