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Tie goes to the runner!!!
I know y'all have heard that one. Kinda drives ya batty. Here's my three favorite baseball rule myths in no particular order. Yeah, they bring a smile to my face! 1. A batter who has walked (base on balls) can over-run first just like a batter who's hit a ground ball and not be tagged out if he "returns immediately." (of course he can't, once he's past first and/or off the bag, he can be put out when tagged) 2. If a fielder hits a batted ball with his thrown (detached) glove, the batter-runner gets three bases from the time the glove hit the batted ball. (no, the batter-runner gets three bases from the time of the pitch, if he tries for home, he's out if tagged) 3. On the ole fake to third then throw to first pick-off move, the pitcher's pivot foot can remain in contact with the pitcher's plate during the entire move. (no, he can't "wheel" so his pivot foot must disengage the pitcher's plate on the move to third) How about y'all. Got any favorites? |
You must not work Fed, do you?
Your #2 and #3 are not myths under Fed rules. |
Am relatively new to the umping gig, this being my first full year, as doing this "seriously". Anyways, I never knew that about the batter who has walked. So, if a batter gets walked, and as hes trotting to first, if he goes a step or two BEYOND the bag (straight up the line) he's out if tagged? And if so, how do I explain it to the coach, what verbage do I use?
Annnnnnd, as far as the tie to runner thing. Again, not having been doing this a long time, this is a novice point of view. To me, if a tie, it would go to runner, Heres my thinking: To record an out at first, the ball needs to BEAT him to the bag right? The ball beats him, therefore hes out. Sooooooooooo, if the ball hits the glove at the same exact time (theoretically), as the runners foot hits the bag, well, the ball DIDNT beat him, so he's safe. I guess you could argue it the other way around , saying the runner didnt beat the ball. To me, it makes much more sense to argue saying the ball didnt beat the runner. Plus if you called him out, youd be negating the effort by the runner to beat theplay, which he did (if your going by the ball didnt beat him theory). Conversly, your rewarding the defense with an out, when, in reality the ball didnt beat him for the out. And as far as # 2 and 3, which is it? |
Chuckfan1:
I see that you are new. Welcome to the fraternity. Now repeat after me: There are no ties in baseball. Good, again: There are no ties in baseball. Better, now with real conviction There are no ties in baseball. Okay, now that that is settled, how could a "tie" go to the runner when there are no ties in baseball? You get paid to make the decision, is he out or safe? It's up to you. Consider: Why was the play so close? Did the defense turn in a fantastic play to make an out possible where it didn't appear to be so? Call the out. Did the defense screw up and let the runner make it so damn close most can't tell? Safe. Did the runner put out half hearted effort on what should have been an easy single. Call the out. Did the runner show phenomenal "Pete Rose" hustle and make what should have been an easy out too close to tell? Safe. When it's really that close, I reward the better play. And remember, there are no ties in baseball. [Edited by GarthB on Dec 12th, 2002 at 09:31 PM] |
First things first. Tie Goes to the umpire, The runner is out.
Now, Federation rule book, pg 51, "Baserunning Awards Table", bases are determined from the base occupied at the time of; "Infraction", when a fair batted ball is contacted with detached player equipiment or illigel glove/mitt.. Finally,Pg 39 Ferderation Case Book, case 6.2.4 in summary states that a pitchermake feint to third and then throw to first, with or without disengaging the pitchers plate. As you can see, this GIG takes some studying of all the rules. Good Luck |
Hmmmm,
"Tie Goes to the runner."
First of all the National Transportation and Safety Board, through interviews with witnesses to all type accidents have deduced that it is impossible for the human brain to determine the order of happenings when things happen in a window shorter than .0445 seconds. The eye can "see" what happens but the brain cannot determine the order of the activity in those nano-seconds. So when we have a close play old Tee follows the formula: "Let's see, that sucker was REALLY close . . . if I call him safe then the inning will drag on and there will probably be about 12 more hitters . . . on the OTHER HAND if I call him out that means we get outta here and I can have an extra cold adult beverage or two . . . hmmmm, I wonder what he is . . ." In seriousness, ALWAYS reward the defense . . . the rules are written FIRST to score runs and SECOND to stop the scoring of runs . . . in the long run the defense is required to "stop" the offense. Advantage/Disadvantage umpiring dictates this call to be an "OUT". No ties in baseball (butt'cept for the All Star Game). Tee Others have more than adequately pointed out RandellUmps misstatement IF one works FEDlandia. T |
Also, #1 is NOT a myth in Little League and NCAA rules.
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And remember, there are no ties in baseball.
[Edited by GarthB on Dec 12th, 2002 at 09:31 PM] [/B][/QUOTE] Garth Didn't you see the allstar game? |
Overrunning 1B on a walk is not so simple:
BRD 108 points out that three sets of rules differ: Fed: Batter-runner who overruns 1B on a walk in is peril of being put out. NCAA: Batter-runner may overrun 1B on a walk provided he returns immediately and does not try to go to 2B. OBR: "Same as NCAA," but then gives some "exceptions." One official interpretation, in direct contradiction, says BR <i>cannot</i> overrun 1B with impunity, as he is protected only to 1B. Another official interpretation says he is permitted to overrun if the pitch gets away from the catcher and he is hoping for a chance to get to 2B. A new interpretation says he cannot overrun if the catcher gloves the ball, but <i>can</i> overrun if the ball gets away from the catcher. Oddly, in dealing with a base on balls, J/R says "the ball remains live and any runner who is tagged off base after touching or passing his awarded base is out. . . . However, the batter-runner is allowed to overrun 1B, provided he returns immediately to the base. [NFHS 8-2-6]." But NFHS 8-2-6 says specifically, "A player who is awarded 1B on a base on balls does not have this right [to overrun]." Also notice what is apparently a key difference in a related play (not a base on balls): BRD 107: Fed: A batter-runner may overrun first without peril of an out provided he does not attempt <i>nor [</i>sic<i>] feint an attempt</i> to go to second. NCAA: The batter-runner is in jeopardy of an out only on an attempt (not a feint) to go to second. OBR: Same as NCAA. So NCAA and OBR distinguish between a feint (does not put the BR in jeopardy) and an attempt (does put the BR in jeopardy). |
This one can't be common, but is my new favorite after a PU called this during minor LL winterball.
Batter squares to bunt "Strike". My comment .."What?" "Sorry coach, he didn't bring the bat back from across the plate soon enough".... "Soon enough for what blue?" "It is a strike if the batter leaves the bat across the plate once the ball gets there"... Barry |
Tie goes to a runner?
OK, in theory that I heard somewhere... If the ball and runner arrive the same time, and the brain registers this, then you must determine which happened first. Therefore... Light is faster than sound, correct. If you see the foot (light) hit the bag at the same time that the thud of the ball (sound) happened, then it is determined that since sound travels slower that the ball hit the mitt before i t appeared that the foot hit the bag at the same time. |
<i> Originally posted by Randallump </i>
<b> Tie goes to the runner!!! </b> As far as myths go as others pointed out what may be a myth under one set of rules is not necessarily a myth in another set of rules. Perhaps some of these myths came about during the sandlot days. When I was a kid a TIE (meaning a close play) did indeed go to the runner because we had no umpires and that was the easiest way to resolve the issue. However, we had other rules to <i> even out the playing field </i> like an automatic 3 outs if you hit the ball in a <i> dead zone </i> meaning an empty field since most of the time we played with 7/8 players. As far as close plays goes - Reward the agressor. If the ball is routine to say F4/F6 and F4/F6 is taking his /her sweet time fielding it and bobbles it and B1 is busting it out of the box and the play is close reward the hustle with a safe call. Conversely if the defense makes a great play like F6 going deep in the hole, reward the defense. Pete Booth |
If I ever get into a situation where I can't tell what happened first, I call the out, and also sell it hard so it doesn't appear that you don't know what happened first. It's pretty much been a general rule for me that if I am ever in doubt about something, a bang bang play, a ball being trapped or not, a pitch on the border of ball or strike, maybe a balk, maybe not, anything like that, I pretty much always give the benefit of the doubt to the defense. As our UIC used to tell me when I started, "You get paid to call outs and strikes."
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<b>
As far as close plays goes - Reward the agressor. If the ball is routine to say F4/F6 and F4/F6 is taking his /her sweet time fielding it and bobbles it and B1 is busting it out of the box and the play is close reward the hustle with a safe call. Conversely if the defense makes a great play like F6 going deep in the hole, reward the defense. Pete Booth [/B][/QUOTE] I agree, Pete. And, if they are BOTH hustling, call the OUT. Baseball is a game of outs. Evaluators at higher levels don't want to see a woosie SAFE call on this |
Ok all, thanks for the input. Ive never let it get into my novice thinking mode of "tie goes to runner", its not in my thought process, Im not thinking that out there. And Ive heard that too, about rewarding the defense on a great play etc, and thats pretty much what I do. Just was taking it to the nth degree I guess. Just a theory, but of course throw the theories out the window when on the field. Its funny, Ive been doing this "serious" since about March, and have come a long way. When I started I knew I was ahead of most "rookies" as I had been doing this on an unofficial basis for quite some time. Plus, when I committed to doing this, I COMMITTED. Clinics, reading every day OBR for a few minutes, asking to be assigned with partners who are rated highly so I could learn from them etc. And in just the short time, I look back, and think my learning curve has been good. And I KNOW, its still a long way to go, and games games games is the best experience.
Ive always thought the "easy" part was calling balls/strikes safe/out. The part I had to learn was all the rules interpetations etc. Yes, I need to fine-tune my play-calling, but for the most part, thats what Ive experinced. Game mgmt etc. And just learning from everyones experince even about this has been helpful. Now, if he jogs past first on a Walk (intentional or otherwise) and is tagged is he out? And how do I explain it if he is? Im doing mostly USSSA and Pony, and some little league. My guess is, no, at this level, unless an attempt is made. |
Quote:
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I believe the official rule states that the runner must beat the ball to the base. Therefore if the runner does not beat the ball to the base as would be the case in a "tie" then the runner is out. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
In Christ, Pastor Charlie |
Pastor:
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than to find a "tie" in the rule book. |
Exactly
I believe the reason there are no "ties" is in fact due to the fact that the rule book states that the runner must "beat" the ball to the bag. Again correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks!
In Christ, Pastor Charlie |
Actually Charlie, the "who beats what" rule for the batter going to first is opposite from the rule for runners forced to advance, thus another reason to stop thinking about ties.
Call safe or out. 50% of those present will disagree no matter what you call. |
I see that no one is in danger of drowning here.
I was speaking pro rules for which all of my favorite myths are accurate, as for the other codes, I don't know... they "claim" to be like pro rules with "safety" (and other) exceptions. Uh--Huh...Right! Guess I'm one of those "call 'em like the pro's" kinda guys since that's what Mr. Evan's and BUD taught me. I noted that high school ball has a single specific interpretation from the list. Just an imperfect world, I guess? |
Once was; Tie to the runner
For the amusement of the rules historians out there;
Quoting from the Umpire's Guide I have at hand. You guess the year; "A ball held at first base - (note): In order that the player running to first base be put out, the ball, hit by the bat and fielded to the first baseman by some one of the nine fielders - counting himself - must be securely held by the base player BEFORE the base runner reaches the base. If simultaneously, the base runner is not put out, the ball must positively have been held BEFORE the player reaches the base or the Umpire must decide the base runner "not out."" From the first professional Base Ball Umpire's Guide published; DeWitt's 1875. So, ...in what year are we proposing that it changed??? (tongue firmly in cheek) Paul "Coot" Hunkele http://www.vbba.org |
"The hands are part of the bat."
"The bunted ball stopped on home plate - it's got to be foul!" "He was on the base when the batted ball hit him - he can't be out." "The batter didn't mean to interfere with the catcher's throw, so he can't be out." Merry Christmas! |
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