Tampa Bay/NY Jeter HBP?
 

Just saw in Tampa Bay/New York game top of 7th. Umps got totally suckered by Jeter. Ball hit knob of bat, Jeter faked an injury and was awarded first. Not good.


Here, I just got the video clip:
Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | Must C Controversial: Jeter to first on phantom HBP - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Also not new. Been doing it his whole career.

Jeter has fooled more fans into thinking he was Mr. Clean since John Stockton. He is, and has been, a lying rat, no better than any other.

Hey - Players will do what players will do - that is why we umpires have to make the call as we see it and not as it's sold to us. Can't fault Jeter - he's trying to get on base. It's the umpire's responsibility to get that call right regardless of the theatrics.

Enabler. :p

MrUmpire:

You are not a Mets fan are you?

MTD, Sr.

well, my first initial call would be "Point Fair" for fair ball, however after seeing the video many more times I would then have to say, "Dead Ball" as I can see the ball hitting the bat but then bouncing off of Jeter which gives me a strike on the count and a dead ball as it hit him while he was still in the box.

I got fooled once on a play like this and told myself "Never Again". I can hear it hitting the bat, and I am part deaf but even I heard that.

thats just my 2 cents worth.

I think this is a good learning opportunity for umpires to watch the play and not to rely on a players reaction. I'm not saying this was an easy call (in real time) for the HP ump, I really think one of the field umpires should have been more observant.

come on it is just a HBP.. it's part of the game, it doesn't make him a bad guy, he is trying to get on base any way he can..

This is kinda like a defensive player in basketball "flopping". It's part of the game but it decreases my respect for the "actor".

Shocked I tell ya, Shocked I am!
 

I can't believe people are actually bashing "The Captain." :eek:

Base umpires can seldom help on a HBP like this one. The plate guy either gets it right or gets it wrong. Eyes, ears, AND batter reaction all factor in making this call, and no matter how good you are you'll still miss this one now and then.

JJ

yep happens every year a couple of times. I tell players all the time (not during a game of course) you have to sell that call to get it.

Same as the bounced throw in the dirt, no way to tell if it hit the foot, but if the batter immediately starts hobbling to first he usually is going to get the base.

Oh forgot to add game two weeks ago and almost same play but I knew it hit the bat and then bounced and hit his hand/arm. Coach goes ballistic and I simply say sorry it hit the bat.
As kid is coming back to bat (he had run towards first) coach asks and he says, "no coach it hit the bat first." Every once in a while we get a little redemption.

Thansk
David

Hopefully with a LOT more emphasis on Eyes and Ears.

Of course it's part of the game. But it does go to show that Jeter's not the paragon of virtue that some people make him out to be (including some people on this forum).

Wow...

I'm near the front of the line on Jeter-hating... but this has gotten silly. Local radio station has even been talking about Jeter's cheating all morning.

Good grief. This no more tarnishes his "paragon of virtue" than would a fielder, knowing he didn't catch a fly ball, who lifts his glove up as if to say "I Caught it!" or someone knowing they didn't catch the ball before the runner passed the base jogging off like he'd made the out.

This is not cheating, or even unethical.

Andy (my youngest son, a baseball player, and still in H.S.), MTD, Jr., and I have watched the replay numerous times. We all agree on the following points:

1) This is a very very very close play.

2) Yes, the ball did hit the end of the bat.

3) The key is: Did the ball hit the end of bat first and then Jeter's body, or did hit Jeter's body and then the end of the bat?

4) The contact between bat, ball, and body is very very very close.

5) Notice that the PU immediately signaled DB and was awarding Jeter 1B. From the PU's angle it appears that the ball hit Jeter first and then the end of the bat.

6) Jeter really didn't have to milk it because the PU immediately signaled DB and awarded Jeter 1B.

I have not read any quotes from the PU or Crew Chief, but I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that that PU, from his angle, saw the ball hit Jeter in the stomach, then hit the end of his bat, and then hit is stomach again.

MTD, Sr.

I am more than sure his contracts rewards him for getting on base more than not getting on base. I am also sure it doesn't say how, either.

Anyone out there that believes this is a travesty of the game well, grow up. As we always say here, show me the rule violation or reference that says this is not allowed.

Obviously a tough call because, none of them seen it and of course the trained eye in a replay is always better than live action.

I don't think it's a travesty -- I do think that Jeter invoking the trainer is the baseball equivalent of the soccer player going down like he's shot until the referee books the opponent. It cheapens the sport and lowers my respect for Jeter. I mean, Jeter was *immediately* awarded the base - the rest of the histrionics were unnecessary.

For those of you saying you'd call out "Dead ball," please don't. The proper baseball call is "Time."

Tampa Bay / NY Jeter HBP?
 

Thank you, I was looking for my shovel. LOL

The "anti" crowd is going to have a hard time justifying the neighborhood play call now.

While you are "correct", and I use "time" out of longstanding habit, we'd all be better served to stop encouraging these form-over-substance distinctions. There is absolutely no difference in the outcome of the two pronouncements, and nobody is confused by either.

Heck, custom and practice notwithstanding, a case can be made for "dead ball" being better. Sometimes the ball becomes dead by rule, and sometimes by a call of "time". If it's by rule, as when the pitch hits the batter, "time" is superfluous; no need to call it when play is already dead.

"Time" causes a dead ball; "dead ball" is giving information.

Jeter's behavior has been one of the lead stories on every ESPN show today to include interviews with many athletes. There are generally two schools of thought:

1) How could he, cheating is wrong!

2) I'd do almost anything, including cheat, to help my team win!

And I gotta tell ya, more athletes are going for #2.

Kornheiser - "Derek Cheater"

FWIW...When asked, Jeter admitted in a post game interview with a radio reporter that it hit the bat first (not that we didn't already know that after seeing the video). I heard a replay of that portion of the interview this morning on a local morning radio sports talk show.

Nope.

Stomach? That must be why Jeter was holding and rubbing his wrist and had his trainer examine his wrist. Yes, of course that's it, the ball hit his stomach.:rolleyes:

Did they play his answer in which he blamed the umpire for giving him first? A real class act.

What a stupid comment.
He was awarded first base. He later said what happened. What is your point, if any?

The Bigger Question
 

So, if Baseball has instant replay how would umpires resolve this play?

What happens when the umpire kills a live ball in error?
How would you get through this one?
What would you do?

At the end of the day this is a play almost impossible to call by humans in real time. Does that mean we need instant replay?

What the umpire "saw" and what the cameras "saw"are not even close.
The ball never, ever, hit Jeter.
This is not to blame the umpire.
It is to ask what would umpires do with the play after watching the replay?
If instant replay was used and the play was, somehow, under review.

Nonsense. Calling out "dead ball" shows an umpire who isn't trained just as much as an umpire calling out "no, no, no, no" instead of "safe" is showing the same thing.

There is a right way to do things and there are other ways. I wonder what Jim Evans and his instructors would do if you shouted out "dead ball" at school -- oh, I know that. They'd pretend to shoot the baseball.

Men,

If you are upset about Jeter, then become a golf official. I have no idea what the man is like in his off the field life, and we will never really know it. The Press warps everything, good or bad with a guy like him. To me he seems like a classy ballplayer who may well be in the HOF one day.

But, he is a ballplayer looking to try and get a win for his team. What's the old saying? "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin' hard enough?" He's trying to win a big game, and he tried to get on first any way he can. He won the lottery that time, he won't the next time. Just don't diss his character, until he has a November date with a golf club tree and fire hydrant and shows it for all to see.

Let's see, he put on an outrageous act to convince all that he was hit by a pitch that he knew didn't hit him and then he blamed the umpire for giving him first base.

That reveals enough of his character to warrant dissing. He is a lying, coniving Rat.

In other words, no one here can deal with this play if replay was in use.

???
 

My good man,

You mean nobody has ever tried to pull that stuff on you? I've had HS kids try that act, and it's no skin off my nose when I didn't buy it. I did lose some skin the first time I fell for it, however.

pianoman,

Not sure what you mean by your post.

Well, sure, but sometimes the "right way" is just an opinion that becomes adopted by sycophants. This is part of the minutiae evaluators use to determine who gets to be a member of "the club". It's in a group with what foul line you stand on between innings, how long the brim of a plate umpire's hat is, what brand of clothing you wear, what hand you use to take off your mask, and whether you use an indicator. To be in "the club" you have to adhere to the minutiae, but they don't add to the quality of your calls.

The distinction between "dead ball" and "time" is more like "three balls, two strikes" and "full count"; umpires are trained to say the former, but on the field the players understand both equally well, and couldn't care less which is used. "No, no, no" isn't even in the same league--it's ambiguous.

Evans could just as easily deem "dead ball" the preferred call--it's more logical, certainly, than calling time when the play is already dead by rule--and if someone called "Time", pretend to look at his watch. Nobody cares except umpires who want to be in the club.

Publius,

You are mistaken.

JM

Is all of this really that serious. It is a player trying to get and advantage. I agree it was not proper to do that, but I do not think he is the worst person in the world because of it. As a matter of fact I am not surprised and never put Jeter on this pedestal that I see others put him on because he is human. It was very funny and not much different than what you see in a soccer game. And it worked. I bet he will not get the benefit of the doubt next time. ;)

Peace

No, it didn't work, because the call had already been made.

His answer was..."the umpire told me to go to first, I wasn't going to argue."

Name three, any three, MLB players who wouldn't try this exact same thing. If you can, it is because they are not quick enough to try. Plays like this abound in EVERY sport at every level. When was the last time anyone heard a player say, " It hit my bat first. I'll just stay here." The player is "selling", doesn't mean the official has to buy. Youtube has a college player acting like he needs a trip to ER, but the ump AIN'T buying. Last time I looked, one team tries to beat the other. How they try is why there are officials. And RULES. If you ain't breaking the rules, then you are SIMPLY trying to win. What a concept!!!

He was at first base, so it worked.

Peace

Agreed!
 

The soccer player who takes a dive after minor contact, if any, and stays on the ground, rolling around in pain trying to get a penalty against his opponent.

The basketball defender who takes the charge on the player going down the lane falling into a gruesome heap even though he was barely touched in order to draw the charge.

The football player who catches the ball on the short hop and comes up holding it high for everyone to see proving he caught it even though he knows he didn't.

The hockey player who leaps in the air and slides half-way down the ice on an “obvious” trip.

Is this because it's Derek Cheater? A Yankee? A superstar?

Didn't have a chance to read this whole discussion, but here is my .02.

Good sell by Jeter. As an umpire, you should use more than your eyes to make calls. I heard the crack of ball meeting bat pretty clear on the video. So no HBP. When Jeter starts hopping around, I would probably give him a HBP, but the ball hit the bat first, so "Strike". It's all part of the game.

I would have liked to hear the conversation between Jeter and the trainer.

"Where'd it get you?"
"Right here on the hand"
"I don't see any bruising or feel any fractured bones."
"Well that @#$%^&* hurt."
"I'll be OK"

Maybe it was premeditated and the trainer was in on it?!? What's the difference in this and a fielder making a "tag" but missing the runner and then throwing to the next base for a double play. A good fielder will sell the tag.

There's no good answer as to what would be done if this play was reversible -- award bases? Do what you "think" would have happened?

If a play like this becomes subject to review, then you'll see umpires trained to leave the ball live in any questionable situation and use replay to reverse it. In fact, that's good training and good umpiring anyway.

Except that a ball hitting a hand sounds very much like a ball hitting a bat. No way the PU can use sound to rule out it hitting Jeter's hand.

Does anybody else find it funny that in both replays. The two different anouncers thought it hit him in normal speed! But after multiple slomo replays they become experts on the play. Not that we shoud give a rats what anouncers have to say. But the one guy says something like "that's big of you you miss the call and now Joe gets tossed" wasn't he the same guy who said Jeter just got nailed when it happened in normal speed, so in fact his call would have been the same as the PU!

Interesting article....

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/sp...r=1&ref=sports

Some good points, I thought. Is there gonna be a 4-page thread here everytime an MLB outfielder tries to sell a trapped ball as a catch? A catcher pulls a pitch? Someone tries to sell a phantom tag?

Or is it only Jeter? :)

I think you are right. But, at the same time, I doubt any umpire could have gotten that play "right" . And it is not a reason to establish replay, either. It is just the way it is. Some calls are impossible to get "right" in real time.

Uh ... yeah it did - what replay are you watching?Um ... foul ball, get back in the box. Done. Easy. What's the problem?

Now play that audio while watching the video of him holding his arm, grimacing in "pain" and having a trainer check him out for a hit to the wrist that didn't happen. Yep, a real class act.

Watching the replay (link on the OP), it appears the ball MIGHT have hit Jeter's elbow before hitting the bat, then it hits his hip.

I have no problem with Jeter's antics. He's doing what all ball players do in that situation.

Absolutely hilarious to read on ESPN what guys have said, and then this morning on Sportscenter having a whole segment on this play.

This happens everyday in MLB. These guys must have never played ball or something.

What's next, every flop in basketball gonna be replayed, and in football every time the DL fakes that he's being held ... love the guy didn't catch his name who tells of how he pushed the referee into the hole to plug the hole in football ...

Thanks
David

I always find it funny when commentators want to tell umpires when and when they should not toss people. As if the only reason they are tossing them is because of a missed call. Not that the manager or player is in their face or anything and will not let the silly issue go.

Peace

problem #1.. it was a fair ball.

Nope - it went off the bat handle and hit Jeter's hip - in the box - foul ball.

I agree with Rich it hit the hip. The dumb announcers were calling it a fair ball.

your right Rich, I looked at the replay, it did hit him.. my fault.

Try and get this right working one man where we do nearly 60% of our summer ball.

Nearly every time, I'm awarding the batter 1B...frankly, I'm not that good to tell the difference between determining what hit what first or not.

Why would your first instinct be to award the guy first "nearly every time"?

Because the pitch doesn't belong in the batter's box.

I always give the benefit of a doubt to the batter in this situation. Like Rich said the pitch doesn't belong in the batter box!

Disagree. "Faking being fouled" is a technical foul in basketball; it's rarely called because very few players actually flop without any contact. Typically, they exaggerate the contact by falling backwards; but there's contact.
Jeter's move is the equivalent of falling (along with the gutteral scream) without any contact at all.

I realize lying is part of the game. Some players are really good at it.

I have no real issue with Derek Jeter accepting a free base offered by an umpire who screwed up. That is also part of the game.

But, Jesus, at least take the dress off and drop the purse and go to first like you had a pair.

They are not equivalent if it is against the rules in one sport but not the other. That doesn't mean Jeter isn't a lying RAT. They all are. And I'm a Yanks fan for 50+ years.

Really?

He had to jacknife out of the way of the ball and it did hit the bat while in one of his hands. It's not like it wasn't even close.

Oh wait - jusy another Jeter-Hater in action. Never mind.

Is "faking being fouled" a "T" at the NBA level?

You can't equate high school rules with pro rules. You can't equate amateur philosophies with pro philosophies either. And you sureheck can't equate what is illegal in high school basketball with what is commonly accepted in professional beisbol. They fake catches on trapped balls all the time. They have phantom tags. Every catcher in the bigs pulls pitches. And hitters taking a couple of steps to first after taking on a 3-1 count trying to draw a walk is about as commonplace as you can get. Do you propose that baseball should make up some kinda rule penalizing players for doing something like that, something players having been doing since the Babe Ruth era?

Apples and watermelons!

Thank God he didn't hurt his mangina.:rolleyes: