2 men on base
 

Anybody see the trail runner get tagged?

Baseball Oddities | TB@BOS: The Rays turn an odd double play in the sixth - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

I watched this last night and initially I did not see him tagged. I have not looked at it since, but I think it was missed.

There was another play on R1 for San Diego last night that also I don't think was tagged and called out...I think it cost SD a run.

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The players should be embarassed that they didn't know the rules, and the umpiring crew should be embarassed that either 1)U3 thought the trailing runned was tagged (he wasn't) or 2)U3 "automatically" had an out on the trailing runner when both occupied the base (surely he knows better).

To stand there and make no call would be difficult. I think the tendency is to make SOME sort of call. If U3 makes no call then it's likey F2 fixes his mistake and tagges the trailing runner.

Didn't he make a call and actually point at the runner calling him out?

Then PU called him out again? That's how I remember seeing it...was it different in the clip you posted?

I saw a tag by F2 on a different replay. Bare hand to the leg of the trailing runner. Hey, even U3 saw it!

On watching the video many times I see Patterson lying on the ground, arms stretched but not touching third base as he was trying to get back to third base while F2 touchs him for an out. I never see Martinez getting touched nor do I see both Patterson and Martinez occupying third base at the same time. How can Martinez be called out?

The third base coach should have put up more of a fight on this one. If I am missing something please tell me but I dont see how the crew got this right.


I had a very similar play a few months ago in a Men's league. Same situation with runners, B3 hits ground ball to F4, R2 breaks for third base while R3 heads for home. R3 decides to go back to third base and I have both R2 and R3 on third base as the same time. Someone on the Defense tells F2 (he had the ball) to touch R2 after doing so I point and look at R2 and call him out. Then for some unknown reason R3 steps off the base and F2 touchs him too for an inning over DP. The offense puts up a little fight saying how can that be and the same thing happened to them the night before. I explain the rule to them and think to myself (if this just happened to you last night and you still havent learned, then it sucks to be YOU).

I was watching the game on the dish from a Florida feed. They showed a different replay that showed Patterson being tagged first with the mitt and then with the ball in F2's other hand, followed by F2 then also tagging Martinez on his left hip with the ball in his hand. That tag was screened by Longoria in the video posted above but the umpire was looking right at it and had a great view. Both tags plainly showed showed on the replay that I saw.

Righteous call!

I disagree with this being a righteous call. Let's say for argument's sake both tags occurred. Once Patterson was tagged, Martinez has every right to occupy 3rd base. There is no way there should have been two outs on this play because Patterson never got back to the base. From all the angles I saw, Patterson never gets back to 3B.

For the record, I'm an NL fan and don't have a dog in this fight.

Disclaimer: I'm not an umpire and I sureashell don't pretend to know the rules that well.

On the replay that I saw, Patterson was off the bag when he was tagged and Martinez was standing on the bag when he was tagged next.

Once one of them is tagged off the bag, the other has the right to the bag. (the rule only comes into play if both runners are on the base -- the base belongs to the preceeding runner, unless that runner is forced.)

I didn't see the play, and don't know who is who in the play.

Jurassic, if Patterson was indeed off the bag when he was tagged first as you say (which keep in mind I totally agree) then how can you think this is a Rightous call to have Martinez tagged out AFTER Patterson was tagged for the out off the bag? Martinez had every right to the bag once Patterson was out.

Because I didn't know the complete rule when I first posted.:)

As I said, I ain't an umpire. I'm a beisbol fanboy.

It's not clear to me what happened on this play. After F2 tagged both runners, Jim Wolf (U3) pointed at R2 and signalled out. That's consistent with the rule: since R3 is still entitled to 3B, if they're both on the base then R2 is out.

But then R3 takes off for home, and before he's tagged Wolf is pointing at HIM and signaling out (you can read his lips, "he's out too!"). Wolf has him out before the PU bangs him out.

Why is he out too? When was he tagged? Couldn't have been before the tag of R2, or R2 would have been safe. That was odd.

Jurassic, what does a rule have to do with this particular play?

As you said, and the video clearly shows, Martinez was already on third base as Patterson was going back to third, however BEFORE Patterson makes it back to third he trips and falls and F2 tags him on the back (may have been the leg but I think it was the back) with the ball in his right hand. That is an out. Even you said you saw this and said that Patterson never retouchs third base. How can you have two people on the same base when it never happened? Even after Patterson got up to head back to the dugout (if you look closely and read his reaction even he thought he was out) he never touchs third base even as a precautionary measure. But that shouldnt matter as F2 had already tagged him for the out. But the umpires blew the call in my opinion and Patterson figures why not, I will try to score anyway, and they, the umpires, let the play continue. Why?

So with that, my questions still remains:

1. How is this a Righteous call?
2. Why is Martinez out?
3. Why didnt the third base coach put up more of a fight as he was there to witness the whole play? (maybe because he didnt know the rule? could be but how can the rule come into effect when still the point is there were never two people on the base at the same time)

If someone sees something that I dont please tell me but I clearly see Patterson getting tagged BEFORE he retouchs third base.

Byron, I agree with you. If they were both on the base at the same time, then it is consistent with the rule to have R2 called out if there was a tag on him. Some here says that Longoria is blocking the camera when F2 actually tagged him. That is possible I cant tell from the camera angle. But the thing is Patterson never makes it back to third from what I can see and he is tagged out first Before Martinez is supposedly is tagged.

To keep the rule intact, dont you have to have both players on the same base at the same time then by tagging R2 (Martinez) first you get an out? If I am wrong please correct me but thats how I read the rule. If both are on the base at the same time, how can R3 (Patterson) be tagged first and called out then R2 (Martinez) be tagged secondly and called out? That just doesnt make sense to me.

I already said that I didn't know the damn rule when I said that it was righteous call. And I also already said that Pattersen was tagged before he touched the bag and Martinez was on the bag when he was tagged.

Whatinthehell more do you want? Sackcloth and freaking ashes?

Lah me......:rolleyes:

It doesn't matter in what order they are tagged, or whether the lead runner is tagged at all. If both are on the base, the trail runner is out when tagged (assuming there's no force involved).

What the umpires saw, and what they ruled, might be different from that and from what the replays show or don't show.

I want flagellation. Oh, and video of it, please. :D

Ok, but if I go blind, it's on you!:eek:

Wolf blew the call
 

Patterson was tagged off the bag. At that point, Martinez is entitled to the bag, and is occupying it. It doesn't matter if he is tagged or not at that point; he is standing on a base to which he is legally entitled.

BK47, you're not missing anything. Only Wolf is--the call.

Here's what I see in the video:

R3 breaks for home and gets in a run-down. R2 advances to 3rd and remains touching it throughout the play. R3 is chased back to third, and reaches it before being tagged. With both runners touching 3rd, R3 is tagged and then R2 is tagged, perhaps accidentally, but tagged all the same. R2 is called out. But R3 has already gotten up and has started for the dugout, and he is subsequently tagged out.

So what is the problem?

R3 (Patterson) did not reach the base before being tagged. See :55-:57 for a clear view.

There was no basis to rule Martinez out.

Watch instead from 9-15 seconds--there is clear daylight until well after R3 reaches the base. No way there is a tag.

Instant Replay
 

What worries me about this play is how many people feel strongly that they know what happened after watching the replay. I'm afraid that this bodes ill for what appears to be the inevitable increase of reliance on replay if MLB.

well, in defense of myself, I can only go by replay as I did not see it in real motion. I was not at the game nor did I watch the game on TV.

na, but I could go for a good Ale or maybe a Gin and Tonic..........

sorry dude, didnt mean to piss you off.........