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MrUmpire Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule (Post 690709)
from the letter of the rules, we know that (1) a 1b or 3b coach cannot physically assist a runner, and (2) another runner can physically assist a runner.

So let's examine a case that falls into neither category. What if a runner trips coming home and a player from his dugout runs out, helps the runner up, and pushes him across home plate just before the ball arrives? What if the batboy assists the runner in such a way? The trainer?

Is there a rule that prohibits such action?

The usual reference books apparently have nothing on this (or assistance by a runner who has been put out), perhaps because if coaches can't assist a runner, it's obvious that other members of the offense can't, either.

Originally, the rule applied only to the 3b coach. It was later extended to include the 1b coach. I suspect that the rulesmakers simply never imagined anyone else assisting a runner.
+1

KJUmp Mon Aug 30, 2010 02:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by callstrikes (Post 690654)
Has anyone heard from Angel Hernandez? Writing on MLB.com for Washington does not confirm it for me.

Well actually yes, Jim Ringelman heard from Angel during the ensuing argument. Quoting from Lasdon's article: "Ringelman argued the call but the play stood. The skipper admitted that he didn't see Roderiguez push Morgan toward the plate." Lasdon then quotes Ringelman directly, "You can't do that and he got caught, Ringelman said about Roderiguez pushing Morgan."

So we do know what Angel said, Ringelman just told us.

People have been stating or speculating that Rodriquez assisted the runner.
Where in the rules is that illegal? He was practically carried back to the plate, but what rule did Mr. Ladson site? He said this, he said that, but what is the rule?
Also, comparing this play with another in which the catcher had a partial block of the plate, is like comparing Horseshoes to hand grenades. In this play the catcher was a step up the first baseline with his back to the runner. The runner had to go out of his way to contact the catcher, thus missing home. I have no idea what happened officially, but I do know that an apology was issued to Tony LaRusa about the contact.
This is not to say that Angel was necessarily correct, but we do know he told Ringelman what it was that he called Morgan out for.

BSUmp16 Mon Aug 30, 2010 03:35pm
I have no idea if the softball rules allow for this type of thing or if they're similar to OBR in this situation, but here is how the softball umpires ruled on ESPN's "Best Moment in Sports, 2008"

YouTube - Softball player carried around bases by opponents

nopachunts Mon Aug 30, 2010 03:52pm
A Different Take
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSUmp16 (Post 690760)
I have no idea if the softball rules allow for this type of thing or if they're similar to OBR in this situation, but here is how the softball umpires ruled on ESPN's "Best Moment in Sports, 2008"

YouTube - Softball player carried around bases by opponents
But this video is members of the defense helping the runner around the bases, not the offense helping another teammate. Apples and oranges.

greymule Mon Aug 30, 2010 05:18pm
In ASA softball, the offense could carry the runner around.

The ASA wording is The runner is out . . . when any offensive team member other than another runner physically assists a runner while the ball is live.

Then follows something a bit cryptic: Exception: After a runner has scored and missed home plate and then is physically assisted back to home plate, the ball is dead, the runner is out, and the run is nullified.

The wording was changed fairly recently from anyone other than another runner, which some people pointed out could include F6.

BSUmp16 Mon Aug 30, 2010 05:38pm
I know this softball video was the defense assisting the offense, but what I was trying to highlight was that the reason the defense carried the runner was because the umpires had (according to the video) ruled that if a member of the offense had assisted the runner, the runner would be out, which is what the original post was about. Anyhow, according to greymule ASA would have ruled Morgan out when he was assisted back to the plate. Does Hernandez do ASA too?

umpjong Mon Aug 30, 2010 07:34pm
The NCAA rulebook has the similar wording, but in reviewing the 2009 Study Guide for NCAA that is put out by Referee magazine they have this rule interpreted as a base coach or another runner physically assisting him being grounds for an out. An e-mail has been sent for clarification since there is no interp citation of either a NCAA rules person nor a cite that it comes from MLB.
Will post (or JJ will) when an answer comes in. This is interesting since according to the study guide another base runner cannot physically assist while on the base paths. Hopefully this is not the authors own interp and we can track down the origin. Otherwise we are still where we are now........ Its unusual that an interp in this book is not cited by either a NCAA person or MLB.

rbmartin Tue Aug 31, 2010 08:34am
Hypothetically, what would happen if a player (already scored) pushes a player back toward home plate, then realizes his mistake and tackles him, thus preventing him from retouching? Would that then necessitate an appeal for a missed base from the defense since the offensive player didnt actually assist the player?

LMan Tue Aug 31, 2010 08:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbmartin (Post 690810)
Hypothetically, what would happen if a player (already scored) pushes a player back toward home plate, then realizes his mistake and tackles him, thus preventing him from retouching?
I'm pretty sure that's a 10-yard penalty from the spot of the foul, and loss of down.

yawetag Tue Aug 31, 2010 08:53am
J/R states that "a player who had been a runner but has touched home and is signaling to a following runner" is considered "another teammate." However, in the two situations given (Section VI), this scenario isn't listed, simply because no "play" was being made on the runner.

BretMan Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSUmp16 (Post 690772)
I know this softball video was the defense assisting the offense, but what I was trying to highlight was that the reason the defense carried the runner was because the umpires had (according to the video) ruled that if a member of the offense had assisted the runner, the runner would be out, which is what the original post was about. Anyhow, according to greymule ASA would have ruled Morgan out when he was assisted back to the plate. Does Hernandez do ASA too?
Not to veer too far off into the "big ball" game, but...

That video made the rounds a couple of years ago, along with accolades for the defensive team for their display of good sportsmanship. But if it wasn't for the umpires blowing a simple rule, the whole thing never would of happened.

They initially told the coaches that the injured runner could not have a substitute to complete her baserunning award on the home run. That is completely wrong under NCAA rules and a sub should have been allowed.

Instead, they forced an injured player to be jostled around the bases, possibly aggrivating the injury and causing further harm to the player. Sure, it made for a nice touchy-feely heartwarming tale of sportsmanship on the part of the opponents, but it was a totally unecessary display resulting from a gross umpire error.

BSUmp16 Tue Aug 31, 2010 09:03pm
According to the video, the umpires gave the B/R the "pinch runner" option but the B/R rejected that option because then she would not have been given credit for the HR (only a single). The HR was her first and only of her career. So it's not quite fair to blame the umps for this decision. They told the B/R her options and she chose to be jostled around the bases.

BretMan Tue Aug 31, 2010 09:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSUmp16 (Post 690853)
According to the video, the umpires gave the B/R the "pinch runner" option but the B/R rejected that option because then she would not have been given credit for the HR (only a single).
Not true. It would have still been a home run. So they blew that.

They also blew it when they said another runner can't assist the injured runner. NCAA softball rules allow that, so long as the trailing runner does not completely pass the lead runner.

yawetag Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 690859)
They also blew it when they said another runner can't assist the injured runner. NCAA softball rules allow that, so long as the trailing runner does not completely pass the lead runner.
Care to explain how a leading runner is going to carry the trailing runner without having the trailing runner pass her? I hesitate to think the runner could carry her for 180 feet while walking backwards.

Rich Wed Sep 01, 2010 07:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yawetag (Post 690868)
Care to explain how a leading runner is going to carry the trailing runner without having the trailing runner pass her? I hesitate to think the runner could carry her for 180 feet while walking backwards.
Unless there's space between the two runners, one hasn't passed the other.


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