CT vs RI New England Regional Video
 

Here are a couple videos of the play in question that was overruled by an official outside the fence during the Regional Final. Notice how the umpire has the kid get back in the box and seems to be ready to play ball and then gets called to the screen.

Part 1
Part 2

This video and some other info seem to me to refute LL's statement on the issue.

So who won the game? I wonder what part of "the replay will only be used in Williamsport" this regional tournament director didn't understand? Of course we'd ALL like to "get the call right", but it opens a huge can of worms when you go to unauthorized video replay to do so.
What's next - mom in the stands with a handycam? I hope MLB is paying attention to all of this....

JJ

The regional tournament director was following the orders of the CEO of Little League, who directed him, after viewing the replay, to "get the call right". This all flowed downhill from there. Direct your ire at this guy:

Steven Keener
[email protected]

He's the one who decided to steamroll the umpires on the field. The ripple effect of this will be felt on distant shores IF no one stands up to him.

The problem is that if you think the umpiring is bad now, wait until the good ones will not volunteer anymore for the the fact that they're going to get steamrolled...there will always be umpires who will want to work WP, but your quality will go down.

What was LL's statement? Where did they (on the field) get the "unauthorized video"?

Sent to Mr. Skeener
 

I bet you're getting a ton of hate mail today.

As an umpire, I'm curious to learn what prompted you to have the HBP play overruled. It was my understanding that replay was only going to be used in Williamsport. Given that, I'm confounded to see a judgement call, ruled upon by an umpire, (including a 4-umpire huddle that didn't change anything) get overturned by someone in the stands.

As an umpire, we all strive to "get the call right", but we also expect to not be thrown under the bus by essentially a spectator from 45 feet away (even if that spectator happens to be a LL official). Until and unless replay extends to games like this one, the umpire's call must stand. This one call, while you've corrected it singularly, will likely cost you a host of good umpires who refuse to work in such conditions. This will have to have an overall negative impact on your game. LL already fights the stigma of having subpar umpiring among the umpiring crowd - this is going to make it much worse.

There are good ones? *blink*






I keed, I keed....

Reply from Mr. Keener
 

If I'm going to post my complaint, I should post his response, yes? Reads like a copy/paste, so I suspect he's answered this 100 times... but here's the response:

In looking at this play, I think a case could be made for the batter not making a reasonable attempt to get out of the way of the pitch. I'm curious if the replay umpire could have overruled that if that was the opinion of the home plate umpire.

"...despite an honest effort by a good man to help correct an obvious wrong."

It wasn't obvious to the entire umpiring crew on the field. Obviously.

JJ

If the informed the coaches before the game they were using reply there sure didn't seem that way from the looks on the white teams coaches.

Any good coach would have protested this on the spot.

Not even close.
1) The pitch was in the batter's box, where it dosen't belong. Bater's box belongs to the batter,
2) Watch the video again (Part 1), as the pitch comes in the batter starts to lower his stance (watch his knees) as he can see it's going to be a low pitch
and that if he's going to swing at it he's going to have to "go down and get it."

The batter could have made some attempt...it is a curve ball and it looks like he is a smart batter and lets it hit him...it is a 1-0 game.

How old are these kids again?

I highly doubt the batter knew it was going to hit the top of his shoe. Let's be serious here. The thing on his mind was probably what kind of pizza he was going to have after the game (not that there's anything wrong with thinking about that at 12 or however old these kids are)

Actually it was one of doz dere political conspiracies. The Taliban are trying to take over LL players and then do one of does mind changing experiments on dem. This year baseball, next year bomb carrying terrorist..

Get the LL officials to change their call and next thing you know they will be running for President and building religious sites on existing LL fields and then wanting to take over Babe Ruth and Pony baseball.

Got some land in Florida for sale, interested?

I disagree. Being in the batters box does not eliminate the requirement for a batter to make a reasonable attempt to get out of the way of the pitch as I understand the rule. I'm not claiming that I would have made that ruling, but I do think a legitimate case could be made for making such a call. I will always give the batter the benefit of the doubt if they turn, lean, etc. but I don't feel that this batter necessarily did any of these actions.

The pitch was down in the dirt.
His "move" was he started to lower his stance to go down to get the pitch...his initial instinct was to hit the ball.
This sitch was not an example of a batter not making a reasonable effort to aviod a HBP.
As bad as a cluster flub this sitch was 4 umps, 2 of them what...75 ft. away and they can't see an HBP, and then the ensuing "oh let's go to the video replay" by the meddling, all knowing, lets inject ourselves into the umpiring of the game, LLBB Eastern Region administrative and UIC staff, all you have is a missed call. Going with the other call you have a bad application of a rule.

using Papa C's words, only Smitty calls the hitter back for not moving on that pitch...$hitty end of the stick there fellas. No way, no how, (assuming you have a hit by pitch) do you keep the batter batting on that pitch.

There was the root of the problem.

I can't believe you really have been doing this for a long time.

The umpire (the guy behind the catcher, not the replay official) didn't even see the ball hit the player, let alone, hit him on purpose.

Do you also brush off the bases?

WHAT DID I SAY THAT DESERVED THIS SMART A** RESPONSE FROM YOU !!! I stated that I PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THIS CALL however am I incorrect in saying that a batter must make a reasonable attempt to avoid being hit by a pitch ???

F.Y.I. ... I have been umpiring a long time (over 30 years to be exact). I think I have some clue about the game !!!

Lets start off with the fact that you would even CONSIDER making that call at all, then take it one step further and post the consideration.

I will just let the facts speak for theirself.

Four umpires and none of them saw this? I'm sorry, but this is just poor umpiring. So now, LL is going to try and get every call right by having "board meetings" with each other and then meeting with the "mystery man" behind the back stop? This is a joke! All of this is because of poor training, poor organization and the "need" to keep everyone happy.

This is baseball! Okay, it's LL, but it's still baseball! Umpires are supposed to make decisions and judgement calls. The calls may not be popular and they may not even be correct but that is how the game is supposed to be run. And don't give me that "trying to get the call right" crap because if you really want to go down that road, why not have a do-over because the base coach made a mistake in telling the runner to go? Yeah, and let's have a do-over because F7 dropped the catch. He really tried, so let's do the play over or better yet, record the out! The kid made a great attempt so why take the catch away just because he dropped the ball!

According to the rules, a case could be made for making that call. I agree with you that I would not have based on how far that pitch was off the plate. The point of my original post however, was that (for the sake of discussion) if the umpire ruled that the batter didn't make a reasonable attempt to avoid the pitch, would the replay official be able to reverse the umpires decision ??? I would think not, but was throwing this out as a question.

Please show me where the word "reasonable" is written in the rule book regarding hit by pitch. Take your time. Quit making up rules.

With all due respect sir, length of time umpiring doesn't tell me anything about how well you can umpire.

JMHO, but if the ball's in the dirt, or the feet, the batter does not have to avoid that one. I actually want them to get hit on those, as it won't be hitting me. No one is going to intentionally let the ball hit them in the ankles/feet. It's not like taking one off the arm or shoulder.

Take your base, son.

YGTBSM.

For the win!! :D:D

Hey, sometimes 30 years experience is 30 years experience. Other times it's 1 year of experience repeated 30 times.

The whole issue is not whether or not the batter was HBP. The umpires didn't call that, and the video doesn't show very good evidence either. What has gotten everyone stirred up is the fact that the call was overruled by someone outside the fence. LL did implement a replay system for the World Series in Williamsport only. As you can hear in part 2 the DAC makes that statement. The other $h!+storm is the original statement by LL that the umpire asked them for help. As you can see in the video, the PU has the batter in the box and is ready to play ball when you hear him tell the batter to back out. Then he turns around and then goes to the screen. It was originally spun that PU went to the screen on his own and asked for help. As you can see in mbcrowder's posts, the truth is finally beginning to come out.

Sadly this is exactly where baseball for kids is heading ... and its getting there quick. Amazed at what I've seen in the last three years happening in kids baseball.

Thanks
David

It's not kids baseball so much as it's LL baseball. LL goes out of their way to exclude a lot of umpires - umpires who would tend to be better than 50th percentile. Because of the way they run things, their pool of possible umpires is both smaller and generally less talented or at least less trained. That's not to say there aren't very good umpires there - but the really good ones are less common there than elsewhere.

I think other organizations have very good training, coaching, and recruiting of good umpires.

I've tried really hard to not do youth baseball anymore, the last one I did, I had three ejections, bench coach, head coach, and catcher. Unbelievable behavior at the youth level by all parties, I couldn't believe it, much less what other umpires have allowed to occur over the course of a game. Basically all over a bunt attempt that I ruled was not a bunt attempt. Absolutely ridiculous.

Despite none of the umpires seeing this. Which I don't know how true that is b/c I see U1 putting his hands up like "Come on, it hit him". That may not be his intentions, but it appears that way to me. I wonder if anyone else saw it that way.

Now, why is PU asking for outside help? This is a judgment call. Not a rule call. He didn't say "It hit him but he made no attempt" (which I won't ever make on a ball in the dirt, that would be a horse$hit call to make at any level). If he is going to do that, he needs to stay with LL or quit umpiring. Again, it comes back to make your own calls and pay attention when making them.

Bad move by the umpire IMO if he is the one insisting on the TD to help with that call. That is his call to make even after the huddle.

GA - I think you've read the situation wrong. LL says that what happened is what you allude to... but looking at the video it's rather obvious that PU did not go ask for help on his own. It seems pretty clear that he was ready to live with his call until he was called over by the LL regional personnel behind the fence. It's not the umpire that we should chastise (although I would think if I was in this situation, I would have either ignored the racket behind me, or told the guy behind the fence he couldn't change his call based on something he was told by a guy behind the fence, regardless of where he got his info ... but then again, I'm not a LL ump and I don't work on TV - so who knows if I'd have the balls I seem to think I would have, given that exact situation!)... it's the guys in the booth and behind the fence.

As soon as the PU went to screen he was toast...no matter what he did. He goes along with the LL Eastern Region mucky mucks telling him what to do...we get all over it here on the forum. He goes with what Mike suggested above, the LL Eastern Region mucky mucks would have made sure his move up the LLBB ladder came to a grinding halt. Not that it probably already has.

+1

I would disagree that "LL goes out of their way to exclude a lot of umpires" LL does not exclude umpires, umpires exclude themselves. LL's policy is simple, If you take money for umpiring Little league baseball, you are not eligible to umpire in any post season tournaments including regional’s and World series assignments. I umpire various levels of baseball from college to high school and little league. I have aspirations of umpiring one day at the little league world series. So out of the 200 + games I umpire every year, I take payment for everything except little league. So for 30 or so LL games I do every year, I donate 100% my time so the kids can have quality umpires for their games. LL strives to be the premiere "volunteer" youth sports organization. When LL reaches the part of the tournament season that is televised, they want to be able to say that everyone participating is a 100% volunteer. Unfortunately some of the “better” umpires are “disqualified” because they refuse to give their time for free.

Granted, there are some poor umpires that can be seen this time of year umpiring LL baseball on TV. I would be the first to agree that some of the umpires have never seen or been to a umpire clinic....but these umpires have "paid the price" of volunteering their time through their local leagues to be there. So getting to umpire on TV is their reward. Any umpire can decide to volunteer their time to LL if they so choose. Those that do, get rewarded, those that don't are left to criticize.

Semantics. LL creates an environment, via their choices, which excludes a lot of umpires. I'm not saying that NO good umpire would ever volunteer - obviously you (and Rich) are examples of good umpires that do volunteer. I'm saying that the policy eliminates a solid majority of the good umpires out there.

This is kind of my point.

Again, exactly my point. LL places emphasis on working for free, rather than training. Other organizations place their emphasis on training. Hence the blatantly obvious quality difference. They are getting EXACTLY what they want - free, low-quality umpires.

I'm not criticizing any umpire that works for LL - kudos to them. I'm just saying the system LL has set up creates the problem we are talking about.

My only real criticism is that you would think, with the amount of TV money LL rakes in, that they would figure out a way to spend some of that on the quality of their product. Seems a little hypocritical to me that the one organization getting HUGE dollars from a TV contract is also the one organization that won't pay to improve their umpires.

Mike hit it on the head. All that moolah from the TV contracts and Frosted Flakes (:D), and the umpire product is stuck in the 1970s, if not worse - some gems floating out there amongst flotsam.

Shows where the priorities lie. In any organization, people who clearly see they aren't a priority tend to go places they are.

It's a good business model...get 6 umpires out there to work for free and one of your biggest costs locally, the umpire fees...the CEO probably rakes in mid-six figures and expects the umpires nationally to work for free because they're such good people and "doing it for the kids and the betterment of baseball"

A good scam if you ask me.

I've probably peaked as a LL umpire. I'm not willing to put in face time at the region or make a pilgrimage to WP every few years in order to be selected. I will continue to volunteer at the local level and will continue to put in an application for regional and WS assignments. I've worked a regional and had a great time, although I'd say that of the 16 umpires at the region, I'd probably walk onto a HS field with about 5-6 of them. And this was a Senior regional, where the quality of play was actually pretty good.

It disappoints me that LL doesn't realize that assigning an umpire is an important task. Clearly, the regions do not find it important as long as they have decent enough guys to work the plate on televised games -- the other umpires can be volunteers with poor timing, poor mechanics, and little incentive to improve as umpires. I am a member of a LL umpire mailing list where the mindset is, "It's OK that the umpire punched the BR out with the ball rolling by the fence. We're all learning here." Listen, by the time someone is hired to work a regional game, they should be outstanding umpires as well as outstanding volunteers. I hold myself to the same standards working a LL game as I did when I worked an NCAA D3 conference tournament.

I've seen it locally. I'm in my 9th season umpiring on the local district (I moved here in 2002). We have about 5 umpires who are outstanding, IMO (and all have worked deep into the HS playoffs and work (or have worked) college schedules), a couple who have the potential, and a bunch of LL lifers who work no higher than the FR/JV level during HS season. Those people come to clinics, don't really listen or make a great effort to improve, and then think they should be given high profile assignments in our tournaments. And sometimes they do, which completely frustrates me.

The problem is, IMO, the money. When the pay is "zero" or even substantially below market rates, the good umpires tend to gravitate towards the gigs that pay well. I don't blame them. I don't count on my umpiring money for much (I'm fortunate to have a very good day job), so I don't mind passing up the $120 Legion DH during LL tournament season -- but not everyone is willing to or can make that choice.

[QUOTE=Fittske;689185]I would disagree that "LL goes out of their way to exclude a lot of umpires" LL does not exclude umpires, umpires exclude themselves. LL's policy is simple, If you take money for umpiring Little league baseball, you are not eligible to umpire in any post season tournaments including regional’s and World series assignments. [QUOTE]I think your drinking too much of that LL Kool-ade.

I personnally, know of many umpires that were paid for doing LL games and went on to do post season games and paid for that too. Up to and including the WS.

I'm in no way bashing the umpires who volunteer for the intrinsic reward of volunteering...I think that's honorable esp when there are plenty of games in most areas that will pay...or to the umpires that have great paying "A" jobs where the money isn't an issue or they live very close to many fields so the mileage, commute time, and gas money isn't such an upfront expense prior to taxes, but I think as other have already said that you greatly diminish your umpire pool when you expect umpires nationwide to work for free all summer to get a spot at Williamsport. For those who do that, I tip my cap to you, because at this point in my life, I wouldn't make the sacrifice since our season in MN is 6 months long at the longest assuming you earn a spot in the mens state tournament from this weekend - Labor Day. We have to get while the gettin' is good.

It's not just LL.....:rolleyes:

JJ

[QUOTE]Rich IMO your aforementioned statement NAILS it.

Umpires are a team to but here is what happens. For the most part you are working with guys / gals that you have NEVER umpired with.

That's equivalent to a team showing up at Regionals with a bunch of players who have NEVER seen each other or played with each other. There chances of succeeding would be greatly reduced.

When you umpire a HS Sectional game or Regional game chances are you are working with someone whom you are fiamiliar with. IMO, a BIG difference

Also, let's face it, no matter how experienced you are a call will be missed. It's a fact of life BUT now for a kids game we have Replay and Replay was NOT supposed to be used at Regionals Plain and Simple BUT it was. It's called BristolGate.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE]LL has "sold their soul"

LL is about one thing and one thing only - THEIR SHOW. They could care less what goes on during the regular season. They do not care that many LL organizations struggle to get umpires during the regular season because they have plenty come tournament time.

The SHOW is what IMO is keeping LL alive these days. Without the TV exposure, more and more LL organizations would most likely switch programs aka Ripken and the like which have a 50-70 program.

IMO, even a strong advocate of LL baseball should be outraged at what happened at Bristol. No matter how you slice it REPLAY was used to over-turn a call and that is AGAINST the rules. LL does what the heck they want.
Unfortunately it's NOT a kids game anymore when you use Replay etc.

Also, guess what! It's just a matter of time before we see PRO umpires doing the LL Regionals and World Series games.

Pete Booth

[quote=PeteBooth;689225]I agree, Pete. LL really put their foot into the $hit bucket this time! The unfortunate thing is that the people who really care, the umpires that are really there for the kids, rarely get noticed at all. Most of the guys and gals that worked LL in my area (and did so for years) have left for local leagues, our HS Association or just don't bother anymore. They all say the same thing.... "It's not the 3 or 4 games on a Saturday or the make up games under the lights, it's the attitude of the parents, the coaches and LL itself. This action in Bristol, I think will be the last straw for many others (especially here in CT). It's okay by me, our association will take them, train them and put them on the HS fields.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;689225]Hmmm...an MLB ump misses a call which is a confirmed miss on replay, so they send him down from the Big Leagues to the Little Leagues to work on his replay skills....I like it....well.......:D

JJ

All you need to know about how commercialized the LLWS has become: One of the major sports books now offers lines on all LLWS games and who will win each pool.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;689225]Slam dunk on that one Pete.
My association with LL ended in '03. Back when I worked the Regional in Bristol in '01, the Eastern Region UIC was from up in your neck of the woods. Is the same UIC still in charge?

The LL Rep was in the squirrel costume, who was the other guy?