runner stops going to first.....
 

didnt see the play....wandered in afterwards...but 3 people jumped me and asked me about it.
runner on first....sac bunt to the first baseman, fields the ball, runner is coming towards him, stops to avoid tag. Runner on first rounds second, so first basemen does not apply tag. throws to second. First base umpire calls batter/runner out. But batter/runner continues to first since he was not tagged....umpires get together and home plate umpire calls batter runner safe since he was not tagged....all hell breaks loose...
Didnt the batter/runner give himself up and is therefore out?

No, the runner did not give himself up...was he out of the baseline heading for the dugout? If not, he has the right to stop....the homeplate ump got the call right.

tw1ns,

The BR may have ATTEMPTED to "give himself up", but he was unsuccessful.

As described, the BR was NOT out.

JM

didnt see the play myself. Different stories as to what exactly happend. What if the BR starts back towards home?

As long as he's not out of the baseline and heading for the dugout, the first baseman better either make a tag, or take the out at first. This is not abandoning the base(yet).

He can go all the way back until he would touch or pass homeplate.

Remember there is a difference between the baseline and the runner's path to the base. However, in this case, they're probably pretty close the the same.

tw1ns,

He's fine until he reaches the plate. Once he reaches the plate, he's out.

From the MLBUM:

I believe some softball codes treat this differently.

JM

thanks guys....i will pass it on to the rabid fans.

I've had the issue come up several times because as JM said, the softball rule where I don't think you can retreat. It's not the same rule, but many, many people don't know that.

But now you know, go get 'em.

First time I've heard fans wanting to apply a softball rule to baseball... usually it's the other way around.

Yes, ASA softball, BR out if he steps backward to avoid or delay a tag. I think Fed is the same. Note that the violation is treated as interference. And it applies only to the BR, not a runner forced from any base.

The baseline has not been established as no play has been attempted on the BR. Only when there is a play on the runner does the baseline come into the picture.

It is. Immediate dead ball; all runners return to TOP base.

The retreating thing got called in the WCWS super-regionals. Not being familiar enough with SB rules all I could think was WTF?

After thinking about it on and off for weeks I still think WTF.

No idea on the reasoning. My dad actually asked about the play, and asked if baseball had a similar rule.

I agree - that rule is not consistent with other rules in ASA. I can understand why they want to call BR out (I don't agree... but I understand) - but it should merely be an out for running out of the basepath (pretend the line from BR to the plate - not an actual base in this order - doesn't exist, I guess) - not interference and all runners return.

The reason I don't agree with the rule, even though I understand it, is that it is also not consistent with other rules. You wouldn't call R1 on 3rd out for retreating to 3rd to avoid a tag, even if R1 was forced. Why is BR different?

thats the problem with doing baseball and softball....differences and keeping them sorted out. I think I am leaning towards liking the softball rule that the runner is called out. Now let me think on why. :)

From a baseball perspective, I strongly dislike the softball rule.

I like the baseball rule for baseball games. There is a base running strategy to not running into a tag and making them either chase you or take the force at 1B.

I agree, and feel softball should change to match. I can't see WHY it was added in the first place.

Yes, indeed, there is strategy. Runner on 2B only, batter bunts to the first baseman who, moving in, attempts to tag him. The batter-runner stops and retreats so the first baseman will burn time either trying to tag him or go to touch first base, giving the runner on 2B an opportunity to advance to 3B. Seen it many times in 30 years. Strategy. That's why I do baseball and not softball. Well, one of a number of reasons...

JJ

I do a lot of softball, and I never liked that "BR can't retreat" rule. (In ASA, runners return TOI, by the way.) But there's also a rule that a BR who takes off her helmet is out, but forced runners remain forced.

Aside from the obvious things, softball treats many, many plays differently. Obstruction, nullifying runs, what can and can't be appealed, awarding of bases, runners hit by batted ball, what constitutes a force on appeal, no last time by, BOO; it goes on and on.

There are also some softball plays—right in the casebook—in which the offense benefits because of deliberate interference by a BR or runner.