Hidden Ball Trick
 

Hey guys --- first time poster. A basketball official that I know put me on to this site as a good resource. My background is much less official/professional than probably everyone here -- I'm a dad who has coached my son for the past 6 years because they needed people to coach. I've learned a ton about strategy and rules and continue to learn. My son is now in 13-15 baseball and I coach his team. It's an independent (from Little League) baseball league and we are governed by NFHS rules. But I have a question on the "hidden ball trick"

Here's the situation --- pitcher and infielder meet in infield to "discuss" and switch the ball from the pitcher to the infielder to deceive the runner into thinking the pitcher still has the ball. Runner leads off and infielder with ball tags the runner claiming he's out. However, the pitcher was on the mound (not the rubber) without the ball. Balk or no balk? Does the pitcher have to be on the rubber without the ball? Or just the mound?

I've heard answers both ways and don't have a copy of the NFHS rules to verify. It's a bush-league move at least, but is it against the rules?

In NFHS, it's a balk if the pitcher is within "approximately 5' of the rubber".

In OBR, it's a balk if F1 is "on or astride" the rubber.

In NCAA, it's a balk if F1 is on the dirt.

Note also, that this assumes that the ball remained live during the entire process. If the ball became dead, then this is neither an out nor a balk. Get the ball back to the pitcher and resume play.

Thanks --- I'd heard mixes of all of those but the 5' from the rubber is the one I had thought.

Bob, not that it matters for this thread, but isn't NCAA changing or proposing a change on this for 2010 Rulebook. Thought I read this somewhere.

Just remember that it is impossible to have a hidden ball trick following a time out. It doesn't matter if the plate umpire says play. If the pitcher did not have the ball when the PU inadvertently said play then the ball was never legally put in play. No balk, no out, start over.

How the hidden ball trick works many times is that the fielder never actually throws the ball back to F1. During a live ball pick off play or when getting the ball back from the outfield they will keep the ball live and not throw it back to F1...often times faking a throw. If F6 was going to have a conference w/ F1...likely, time would be called and I think Forest Ump is correct in reading post #5.

Not in these parts. Your situation may differ.

Just curious - not picking... wondering why time would "likely" be called. I can see it occasionally being called (by a fielder), but obviously never before an attempted hidden ball trick.

don't see the hidden ball trick very often...in fact 1 time in probably 1,000 games.

But the question was - why do you "likely" have time if F6 (or F3) visits F1?

Well, if a player requests time to go talk to his pitcher, I will almost always grant time to allow him to talk with his pitcher.

If he doesn't request time, I will leave everything live. So if a play is "on" and he has been coached properly, he wouldn't request time, I would leave the ball live and see if they properly execute the play.

Well sure... but that doesn't jibe with "If F6 was going to have a conference w/ F1...likely, time would be called ". Most likely, it would not have been... and nearly all of the time before an attempted hidden ball, it would not have been.

Well, personally I think it's a bush-league play anyway so I'm going to keep an eye on this particular team and anytime there's a meeting of the infielders I'll just call time ... that will force the pitcher to take the ball to the mound

Wow.

Talk about a game stopper.....

You sound like a partner that grants a time out request so the shortstop can throw the ball to the pticher after a base hit....:rolleyes:

As an umpire, I am not going to grant you time just to protect your base runners.

Excellent. You've found the solution to the problem that I've seen just once in 20 years of umpiring.

Guys ... he's a coach, not an umpire. He says so in the first post. Nothing wrong with what he said. (Although I'd rather see you teach your team to be aware so that it doesn't work rather than resort to time outs).

I hope his request for time out is not automatically granted.

What you meant to say, coach, is that you will request time, not call time.

I think NCAA went to two years between rules changes, thus 2009 rules are 2010 rules. And, the normal college season is best 2 out of 3 from being over. Did you mean the 2011-2012 book?

What I meant was, I believe NCAA was proposing a change to the rule from on the rise of the mound (dirt) to OBR's on or astride. In the next rulebook to be published.

Just tell your runners to stay on the base whenever you see this type of meeting.

Yup. The hidden ball trick cannot possibly work against runners who have been properly coached to remain on the base until the pitcher toes the rubber.

:D

You knew this was coming.

Of course ... I'll admit it sucks getting burned on it (even though we didn't truly get burned because the ump didn't know what to do either so called it a dead play), but it's important for me to know the rule so I can coach my runners appropriately

And that's exactly what I'll do now that I know the rule ;)

Yes, that is what I meant :D My players do understand that you don't get time until the ump gives it to you. Sometimes the ump gives it too early to a requesting coach and that really peeves me...but what can you do other than politely ask that they wait until the play is stopped/over/etc

It's not like it happens all the time so it wouldn't be a game-stopper per se. Truth be told, I'll coach the runners to wait until the pitcher takes the mound to take their lead ... that's the right thing to do ... that's the smart thing to do.

Agreed on all accounts ;) I get the feeling that coaches are not liked too much around these parts :D

Like I said, I started coaching to get my kid into the game. He grabbed on to it and enjoyed me coaching so I stuck with it. This is the first year coaching at this age level where all the exceptions aren't in place like they were for younger kids ... so I'm doing everything I can to understand the rules and it frustrates the heck out of me that our umpires don't know them and everyone stands around after a play not knowing what to do or how to call it.

You'd be surprised then as we do have a few coaches that frequent this forum. So long as you're not here to dump on the umpires from your last game and have an interest in trying to better learn the rules, then I say welcome.

That's exactly why I'm here ... ours is a small independent league that's growing and our umpires are high school kids so I don't expect them to have the rule book memorized, but more common areas of contention they should know about I think ... like what comprises a balk, what's the infield fly rule, when can a batter run on a dropped 3rd strike, etc.

Funny you say this. One thing that irks me is how often after a walk, the coach yells time and just starts walking toward the pitcher. Nevermind that the ball is live, runners can run, etc.

As a coach, I always make sure I GET time before I do anything (like walk on to the field). The incidents where the ump called time early I was sending my runner (who had just got walked) to 2B, but time was called by the ump, stopping my runner at 1B.

I would have them keep running. perhaps that would drill the idea of not calling time into the umpire's head.

I make a habit of putting up the stop sign when I hear time before play is obviously over - but a great many coaches walk right through it.

But if the ump calls time, everything stops, correct? No sense in sending my runner and tipping my hand

At the higher levels they won't run and everyone knows it so it doesn't matter. I've seen MLB umpires do a ball exchange with the catcher before the runner is even halfway to first.

How else will you train the umpire?

Well ... not sure it can be tipping your hand as to what you might do later, if you'll never be able to do it later...