Opinions needed, OBR rules
 

I just happened to be home, minding my own business, when I got a call from a local umpire, with a mess to clean up. This is his explanation of the call. I know both crew members, both good young people and umpires who work hard. They are getting a very interesting lesson that will help them in their development. Did I give them the right advice?

OBR: R2, R1, 2 out, 1-2. F2 drops strike 3 and PU calls Batter out. Defense hears the PU, and leaves the field. Batter and all runners are told to run and they did, and at least R1 and R2 score, maybe even the batter.

Mayhem is what I am hearing over the cell phone, so I am going with what the umpire told me at this point. Looks like we need to do some work in handling situations with our younger umpires :mad: I do hope someone gave them a cell phone to call me with, as opposed to carrying it on the field with them :)

I repeated back to the caller what he said. I then asked him, "Is the PU changing his call (i.e. F2 did drop the ball)?

"He wants to get the call right (sounds like he changed it to me)."

My response: "If the PU is changing his call to say F2 dropped the ball, then you have caused problems for both the defense and the offense, and the play is over. What you should do is put the batter on 1st base, move up the runners who are forced by the BR to move (making the bases loaded and taking runs off the board), tell both coaches exactly what you are doing and why you are doing what you are doing, and then play ball."

I finished by saying: "Be warned, someone will protest the game (which is okay in this league), and the Commissioner will decide what happens." What I did not tell him is that you will be ejecting at least one coach (more than likely), and dealing with at least one set of mad fans. However, some things must be discovered and experienced w/o warning to be truly learned!

Okay, here is my reasoning: Simply put, at least one person on the crew messed up. The PU admitted he missed a call. If I was the PU in this case, I probably would stick with the out call, and have to eject half the known world, but I digress.

At this point, it is impossible to repair the damage (IMO, if this happened under NCAA, I think this conclusion is also valid, but I could see where a crew would decide to eat the call) so how do you fix things if the call is changed? It is totally legitimate to give 1B to the BR, he ran on a dropped 3rd strike which he is allowed to do. No play was made on him, which is the responsibility of the defense to do.

The umpire in question, however, sold the out call. He vocally called the batter out, and the defense responded appropriately by leaving the field. So the defense is put in jeopardy by the mistake of the PU.

The fly in my solution is obvious; even in FED the rule is clear that both sides are responsible for knowing the situation even if the umpires do not. But, when the PU decided to change his call, even in OBR, you have to get it right.

Comments?

I don't see how awarding (in effect) 1st base to the batter is getting it right. Did the pitch get past F2 or did he just drop it?

Dash, I did think about this as I talked to the umpires. BTW, thanks for your thought.

Don't know what happened to the ball, and to my way of thinking, it does not matter. F2 heard a vocal out call, and responded by going to the dugout and not throwing the batter out at 1B. How can you throw the batter out at 1B if he's been called out?

Like I said, I would eat the call. The PU in this game wanted to get it right, and he admitted he missed it after meeting with his partner and getting more information.

What a mess.

I'm interested in your thought process as advisor. You say you would eat the out call. So would I (and have, which is why I don't say "batter's out" any longer :)). But you told him to go ahead with his reversal of the out, and then to award bases.

What led you to advise him to do something other than what you would do? As umpires, unless we're being paid to do so we should be leery about telling umpires on the field that they're wrong. Was that your thought? Or were you trying to help him find a solution that worked for him?

If he's a younger umpire, he now thinks that you would handle this situation as he did, which isn't true. I think that the right lesson here is one about "living and dying with a call," rather than thinking that there's always something you can do with runners to fix a bad call.

Turns out this might be as much of a learning experience for you as for them, jk!

wouldnt you treat this situation just as you would if an umpire called a fair ball foul? someone is going to be pissed while someone is getting a break. you live with your mistake, take your a$$ chewing and hopefully you dont do it again. like byron, I too used to say "Strike 3, batter out" until something like this very thing happened to me. I overheard the coach tell his batter no matter what you run to first anyway on a dropped third strike and force the defense to make a play. Thats when I knew I had to stop saying "batter out" on any third strike.

Now on a questionable strike three I will say this instead "Strike three, and thats a catch" or "Strike three, no catch, no catch".

In FED rules (I know, not what was requested), the umpire can "decide" whether BR would have likely made it to first or not. If so, then award as jk suggests. Otherwise, keep the out anyway.

Under the OBR "get it right" philosophy, I'd likely do the same thing.

[QUOTE]What level of ball?

On the majority of DK3's F2 will make the play ESPECIALLy at the higher levels, therefore, the most probable outcome is to RECORD the out.

IMO, you cannot simply put B1 on first base UNLESS the ball got past F2 and rolled all the way back to a rather long back-stop.

In this OP you CANNOT get the call right, so you make the ruling that would have normally occured. In other words if the PU didn't mess up, in the PU's judgement would the defense have thrown out B1 which as mentioned is the most likely outcome the majority of times.

Pete Booth

Well, these reponses are very interesting, and thank you for them.

Points:

1. My first post was not clear, so let me restate: The PU and BU met, and the PU decided he missed the call. He wanted to get the call right, so he admitted his mistake. Four years ago, my adivce would have consisted of: "Try BBQ sauce as the call goes down. For better or worse, things have changed.

2. In OBR these days as I understand it, and as I believe Bob is suggesting, the proper proceedure is to fix what you can make it right. So yes, maybe I should have asked about where the ball was after F2 dropped it. Still, I am not totally sold this was germaine to the problem at hand.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;683019]Pete, the level was 13-14 year old kids, which is part of the problem here as well, and part of the reason why I said what I said. A 15 yr. old kid as F2 makes the play, we are delaing with younger kids here.

I'm not sure I agree with any eating of the call. The call was made, was incorrect, and endangered the defense. We have mechanisms within the rules to address exactly this situation, and it's not just our option, but our OBLIGATION to fix the situation.

To that end, I believe that where the ball was IS important. If this was just a bouncer that catcher fielded cleanly, I think that while batter was put at a disadvantage by not at least TRYING to advance - the vast majority of cases of this play the batter is tagged or thrown out.

However, if the ball was rolling around or especially rolling away - I think you have to place BR on first and everyone else 1 base.

if the PU has a strike three and the ball is obviously in the dirt and/or rolling away then I would think that most (I say most because some smaller guys such as 9-12 may not know) would know to start running right away to first. The catcher would also know right away to get the ball and either tag the BR out or throw to first. There I would say should be no problem unless the PU was sleeping and didnt know it was in the dirt and rolling around or away from the catcher.

I read this post as PU initially had a clean strike three. What made him change his mind to a dropped strike three? If he thought from the getgo that it was clean and he sold it so when he punched the batter out what would make him change his mind? Am I missing something? Did the BU signal to him that it was a dropped strike three?

also, is it possible that F2 dropped the ball on the transfer from glove to hand to roll the ball back to the mound?

[QUOTE]Disagree

There are certain calls that even though incorrect we have to eat.

Ball is FAIR BUT the umpire calls FOUL. Even though the call is incorrect we CANNOT fix UNLESS the dispute involved an HR in which case we can fix.

In the OP unless the ball was No-where near F2, you eat the call because that is the most likely result even for 15's.

IMO, once the umpire said batter's out and one of the parties reacted namely the defense, just like an incorrect Foul ball call you EAT the call, learn from it and move on.

Pete Booth

That would be a third strike legally caught, and so not relevant to the OP.

Not being there and unfortunately, for the pocket book--not being able to read minds, here are my thoughts.

PU called the batter out as 1B was occupied which is the correct call with less than 2 outs. I would assume(I know, I know) that this was PU's thinking. 1B occupied strike 3 and the OUT is recorded.

I did have this happen in a game I was umpiring. I was BU and we had a U3K with 2 outs and R1 (maybe others but they are irrelevant). PU called her OUT and as she ran to 1B I echoed, but the defense was smart enough to throw the BR out at 1B so no harm no foul other than a little chirping from offensive dugout about there being 2 outs. I learned my lesson.

In this sitch, I think I would be inclined to live and die with the call. The PU called OUT for the 3rd out. The same as calling a fair ball foul or the inadvertent whistle in football. However, if the ball was at the backstop, probably going to let BR have 1B and advance other runners only 1 base.

Just my .02.

Dang Pete, you beat me to the punch. I have been trying to write my post between phone calls and faxes and agree with exactly what you said.

like Pete says, and I said it earlier in this thread. Wouldnt this be the same as a fair ball called foul? You can not go back and make the call right and place BR and runners (if any) in locations you think they would have gotten to. You just get an a$$ chewing from the OC and live with it and try not to make the same mistake again.

Byron, my question to the originator here is why is PU changing his mind? What did he see to make him think the ball was dropped or might have been dropped after he already called the BR out? Did he say "Batter Out" on habit afterwhich he realized the ball was dropped and not secured by the catcher? I know that a transfer from glove to hand is still a catch but my point is maybe thats what he saw?

BK, correct. Same as fair ball called foul. Eat it.

Check out my thoughts earlier, maybe PU just had a brain fart about the U3K rule and less than 2 outs because notice in the OP, you had R1 and R2 so 1B was occupied at TOP. Then afterward realized his mistake.

Impossible to know since none of us operate a 1-900 service. :)

Thank you for your thoughts
 

Sadly, I was not at the park either, and we have two younger umpires who are umpiring younger kids.

From all I can gather after talking to the umpires, the PU called out. The coach of the offense made his kids run until some of them scored as the defense left the field. At that point the game stopped and the offensive coach came out on the crew, after the batter had reached base.

The BU saw clearly the PU was wrong, and in the conference they had, the PU realized he was wrong. How he was wrong is an open question I cannot answer. They decided they had to get the call right, and fix it. That is when they called me.

Points:

1. This is not an out/safe judgment call, a tag/no tag play or a fair/foul call. By rule a put out on the Batter or a runner has to be made, and sadly, the PU missed it. Once the PU says he misses it, it is very hard to see how you can just leave a rule error unfixed.

2. The idea of fixing calls, and getting the call right is a problem that a lot of us have with umpiring these days, and I didn't like this trend when it started. But now it is here. We have to live with it.

3. I understand the distinction some of you are making about where the ball is. If it is a High School or above game, I can live with "the ball bounced right into F2's glove (or he dropped it at his feet) so he was going to throw the BR out at 1B, inning over, sorry if I missed the call" (with the reasonable number of ejections coming after the play).

But maybe in HS, and certainly below, we cannot assume this play will be made 95%+ of the time. And the PU's biggest mistake on the play was selling out vocally so the defense left the field, so the defense could get the out.

The PU's mistake did not give the defense the opportunity for the putout, and how do you fix it? In this specific case, I am not convinced that out is the right call to fix it.

I will let you know about the result of any protest by the losing team.

Does anyone else have a problem with umpires using a phone WHILE ON THE FIELD to call someone to determine how to fix a problem?

I understand these are younger kids, but I don't see how you could command any respect for the rest of this game, not to mention any future games. Make your call, clean up the mess, then call and ask AFTER the game -- it's a learning experience. Using someone else to clean up your mess doesn't make you learn. It gives you a crutch that you cal always fall on when an issue arises.

I do, and I missed that this is apparently what happened in the OP. Thanks for pointing it out.

First off this is NOT a protestable situation. It is called Umpire error. No different then the PU calling a ball FOUL that was FAIR. The losing team can protest all they want but to no avail.

You keep asking - how do you fix?

Already answered. The OUT call stands UNLESS the ball was no-where near F2 after he dropped it.

Pete Booth

final reply
 

Thanks for your thoughts as the thread ends.

1. I have no idea how they got a cell phone, but if you look at my first post I question it as well. I believe one of the crew went off the field to get his phone.

2. There has been no protest, but Pete, this could be protested. I just disagree with your view of this play.

There are really two ways to look at this sitch, and I think, from reading, that this lies at the heart of why there are two completely different opinions here.

One is that PU simply blew the call, thinking the ball was caught, and call the out. This is not how I read it, but I can see reading it that way. This IS like fair ball called foul - and I agree with the interp that the umpire just has to eat this out and take whatever crap from the coach is appropriate.

The other - which is the way I read it ... is that the PU saw the non-catch and RULED incorrectly. If this is a RULES mistake, then A) yes, it is protestable and B) it is FIXABLE on the field (in fact, it MUST be fixed).

Without actually asking PU, I don't think the two views can be reconciled, and depending on the answer, BOTH are right.

[QUOTE]IMO, doesn't matter which view you take. You say MUST be fixed and is protestable.

Ok tell me how are you going to fix?

You have 2 choices plus placement of runners. One of the choices is NOT a do-over.

Choice 1 - Out stands

Choice 2 Place B1 at first base.

Now the "fun part" what are you going to do with R2/R3?

The fact is the umpire made a mistake just like an erroneous Foul call -NO DIFFERENT no matter how you view this OP. Eat the call and move on.

Pete Booth

If the PU didn't know the rule and blew the call because of it, is it protestable? I understand that it may not be fixable, but is whether or not a play can be "fixed" part of the requirement for a protest?