Lightning/Thunder Delay
 

I realize most associations and organizations use the 30/30 rule when it comes to lightning/thunder.

Somehow, I never really thought about it until last week, but...

Do any of you write down the time on your line-up card when a lightning/thunder delay occurs?

I know the time could change a lot while a storm passing through.

In most of the places I umpire, there is some sort of field administration. For liability purposes, I'm very reluctant to be the one making the decision to keep playing if the reason for quitting was lightning. Field admin tells us when to go back. I think the 30-minute rule is faulty, by the way. Fields should have lightning meters to measure how far things are away.

The 30 Minute rule is from NOAA. What do you know that they don't?

Do you want the $250 meter or the $20,000 system?

We have the $250 meter (set at 8-20 miles). We pause to look if we get an alarm and wait 30 minutes if we see a flash. The terrain here pushes storms around us a lot.

Absolutely I write the time I see lightning and then every time (within reason) that I see lightning after that. I don't write it directly on the line-up card though, I write it on my little reusable card in my "folder" under "situations". I wait 30 minutes from the last strike at minimum.

-Josh

Who is NOAA? No ... I'm no expert - but I do think that a lot of umpires / referees / field admin / whatever use the 30 minute rule as a crutch to avoid getting a meter, and assume that it's safe if they haven't seen something in 30 minutes. A lot of the time, the meter sees things that we don't. A LOT safer with a meter.

In the event the question in genuine, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration - the water and weather geeks! Part of the Department of Commerce. Hey, they wear military-style uniforms and have their own fleet! Kewl!

NOAA - National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

I haven't written the time down in the past, but I sure as heck intend to in the future. Thanks for a simple and helpful suggestion.

I guess I had sports on the brain and was trying to figure out a sports org with that abbreviation. Just curious ... did NOAA really say something about when sports events should continue after lightning is seen? Seems odd, but OK.

I doubt, however, that they have said people should go by 30-minutes and not use a lightning meter - which is where my beef with the "30-minute rule" comes from.

NWS Lightning Safety Overview

This exact logic killed 2 kids and put about 25 in the hospital during a junior high school football practice. Get a friggin meter folks.

Where? When?

Refrence article?

Crap, now you're going to make me dig. This was in Dallas about 3 years ago. Will get back to you with the article.

I don't know for sure if this was it or not ... seems like the date is longer ago than my memory, and I'm sure that there were 2 deaths in the one I remember. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps...ng-death_x.htm

When the one I remember happened, it was discussed at meetings afterward several times.

And there was no warning? There was no thunder at all before the one that struck at practice?

Note that NOAA doesn't give any recommendation about "flash to bang" counting techniques.

So what do you do when you umpire on fields that have NO lightening meters?

When you see lightening do you call the Game right then and there because there is no equipment available?

The 30/30 rule is an NFHS rule.

The "clock starts" whenever we see lightening or hear a bolt of thunder. If "another one strikes" clock starts over.

It's like this.

One of the officials hears thunder or sees lightening. We call TIME and vacate the premises.

let's say we have waited 25 minutes and THEN we see another bolt of lightening. The 30 minute clock starts over again.

IMO, the 30/30 is as good as any UNLESS as you say the field has adequate equipment, but in this "economic climate" with schools already cutting some sports who has the money to buy expensive equipment.

Pete Booth

I'm with Pete Booth - calling a game is better than calling a paramedic.

When in doubt, I clear the field. No game is worth injuries, I am not a meteorologist, therefore I use the Federation guidelines to the letter. I don't care what anybody else says. If I'm umpiring on the field, it's a strict 30 minutes from the last strike period. If they want to go back out, they're doing it one man and with me going on the record saying that I dont' think we should resume play. I'm not messing around. Everybody wants to play until somebody dies, then "the umpires should've never sent them back on the field." Pretty easy to prove negligence if there's a Federation guideline in place.

I think I'm actually also "with Pete Booth". My point was not that we should throw out the rule and just play. Heck no. My point was that I KNOW there are groups out there who did not feel the need to buy a meter BECAUSE we have a rule in place and they think that is enough.

If you've been somewhere with a meter, then you've likely seen cases where the meter sees lightning that you did not. Having a meter is MILES safer than just using the 30 minute rule.

Pete - you asked what I do on fields without a meter? Well ... I complain about it, and use 30 minutes. :) I just don't like it.

And for those that think I'm just complaining and want other people to pick up the tab - in a league where I was UIC for several years - after I complained and complained, someone at a board meeting said, "We just can't afford the $300 for a meter". So for the next two weeks, my crew worked for half price on the insistence that the remainder went toward a meter. So now that field has one.

Thanks - somehow seems like it would have been bigger news.

You can argue about meters all you want but most leagues that I work with will not spend the money for a meter. What needs to be changed is the stupidity of coaches and parents who cannot understand that lightning causes thunder. In the daylight hours, you normally hear thunder long before you see the lightning (here in CT). This year, our association adopted the 30 minute rule for all games that our umpires officiate. There is a 30 minute wait after thunder or the sighting of lightning. If another bolt is seen or clap of thunder heard, the clock starts again. What pisses me off is hearing the idiot coaches and parents complaining that there is no lightning (bit the thunder is rolling like a rock slide), so why are we stopping the game?

I was doing an evaluation at a JV game last month when we heard thunder and the officials stopped the game as our association mandated. About 15 minutes in, the coaches and parents started getting on the officials. I took out my cell phone and brought up the radar and showed the officials that the cell was moving away and a small rain cell was going to pass to the North. The officials were just about to restart the game after the 30 minute wait but that tiny rain cell ran into a cold front and blew up into a full blown storm in a matter of minutes. Without warning, a bolt of lightning hit the cell tower to our East and the officials called the game. We had to scramble out of there fast as hell as it got very bad, very quick. The way the storm blew up, if those players were on the field, we would have been calling ambulances as bolts were hitting all around us.

I have had the unfortunate experience of watching a good friend get blown apart when a bold of lightning hit him as we were running off the beach. We didn't know much about the effects of lightning other than it was bright, it looked cool raking across the sky and it caused thunder. What more did we need to know? We were only 8 years old and invincible!?! :(

No. I just ask HC or scorekeeper what time is it when we stop play. I have never had a game stopped for lightning that was restarted. Around here, once you have seen one, you are going to see a bunch to follow, and/or the bottom is going to fall out and the field will look like a lake.

How could it get any bigger than USA Today?:rolleyes:

I'm not saying this to be difficult or disagree with anybody, but how accurate are those meters? And what exactly does the meter measure? I guess the nerd in me is curious.

The leagues I work deal with 30/30, including a main field which uses some lightning detection system that we let do the work for us.

I never thought to write the time down on the lineup card, but any time it has been an issue there has been a stopwatch available which we just reset on each lightning strike and mentally note the time the delay started.

You mean loke CNN or ESPN or even our local paper? :rolleyes:

We'll have a storm blow through and then clear skies for the rest of the evening. We can have the fields ready in 30 minutes or less.

Nerd on.:D Lightning detection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's the best reason to have a meter, imo. No one argues when the alarm goes off -- they just clear the field and wait for the "all clear."

That said, they aren't perfect and will give both false positives and false negatives. The latter is more problematic, so we must use some common sense -- I've stopped games even when the meter hasn't gone off.

A few weeks ago on a Saturday night, I was working a men's softball game in a park where there was also a couple of LL games going on - one softball, one baseball. The forecast already had t-storm and tornado watches, and you could see in the west/northwest darkening skies.

Sure enough, about the 3rd inning, I hear distant thunder I keep going, as it was very distant, but was definitely keeping an ear out, and an eye open. After another 10/15 minutes, I heard thunder much closer, and cleared the field. I had to explain to one team the 30/30 concept (the other team actually had a fellow school softball ump on it, so they KNEW), and waited...BAM...more thunder....a little closer...I look over to the LL fields...and the idiots are still playing! After another five minutes, and a little more thunder, and even a touch of a distant flash, I actually trudged over - in full plate gear - to the concession stand, and sitting on the counter was a little tiny detector. I actually asked the lady at the stand why the heck they were still playing. She said she was wondering too. I told her the only detectors I need was here - pointing to my eyes and ears. So she started calling for somebody in charge, as I walked away, and they finally stopped play. Meanwhile, me and my partner both figured out that this game (and the one after - a DH), was simply not going to happen, so we we called it. Sure enough, as soon as I had taken my gear off, and driven up the road about five minutes - BAM! - a DELUGE - with multiple lightning flashes.

The whole point of this story is that, no matter what technology you want to trust, your eyes and ears (and experience)are almost always better tools to use - just like during a game!

In a neighboring town a number of years back, two coaches were struck by lightning in the outfield of a field AFTER the 30 minutes from the last thunder/lightning. One of them died a few days later and the other recovered and is fine. I've met him. That league's policy now is at the first sign of lightning/thunder, you bang the game and go home.

I do not mess with lightning. First sight of lightning or sound of thunder, I clear the field and start the 30 minute count.

More and more of the fields around here have (collar counties around Chicago) lightning detection systems, with the Thorguard system the most prevalent. It measures the potential for a strike, rather than detecting actual stikes. I have been at some fields with the latter type of system.

Regardless, I agree with ASA/NYSSOBLUE's point that they are not a substitute for your eys, ears, and brain.

I was working a Colt league game a couple of years ago, and it was overcast and "threatening" from the get go. Got through the 1st game, and about the 3rd inning of the 2nd, I thought I might have heard thunder. The field was about a mile from an interstate in a rural area and sometimes when an empty semi hits a bump, it makes a sound kind of like ditant thunder. I checked the sky & started listening more closely. A minute later, I heard what I was sure was thunder.

I immediately called time. And started to announce that the game was suspended and I was clearing the field. The fans are moaning, the coaches start trying to talk me into continuing because "the lightning system hasn't gone off" and they point to it, right on the roof of the concession stand. I tell them I heard thunder and was suspending the game and clearing the field.

Before the next word could get out of their mouths, the damn thing went off. It was fun to see the look on their faces.

We cleared the field & just about the time everybody had gotten in their cars, the skies opened.

Sometimes you get lucky.

JM

I would agree and disagree with this... :)

If your eyes and ears tell you there's lightning and thunder, and the detector doesn't - stop the game.

If your detector tells you there's lightning, and your eyes don't... stop the game.

Our league mandates this:
Hear it, clear it.
See it, flee it.

30 minute clock on hearing thunder. Next one withing 30 minutes: go home.
See lightning, go home.

I don't understand why you wait if you hear it, but go home if you see it. Depending on the amount of daylight and the direction, you can sometimes hear thunder when you can't see lightning, and you can sometimes see lightning when you can't hear the thunder.

That's a little bizarre, implying that visual lightning is somehow more real or more threatening than just hearing it... you know that if you hear thunder, the lightning exists somewhere - just as much as if you saw it. It isn't like thunder is a precursor to lightning or a lightning warning as such... it's the same thing.

at the point of impact, the lightning happens first, the sound is secondary. so if you hear thunder, there's already lightning somewhere (which I know all of you know)

Technically untrue, but the point is the same. If you hear it, it exists somewhere.

(At "the point of impact", or more correctly at the point where the discharge originates, the light and sound occur simultaneously. As you increase distance from this point, the difference between light and sound becomes more apparent, as the speed of light is way faster than the speed of sound, and much of the sound is echo, not initial, sound.)

On the topic, I have a game management question. Sitch: Working an American Legion game last week. "Threatening" skies to begin with, and with the visitors coming out for the bottom of the first, a nasty bolt threaded across the right field sky - about 12 seconds to the thunderclap, so only about 2-3 miles away. I cleared the field. We spend the next 75 minutes waiting out a lightning delay - looking at radar, we were right on the edge of a huge, slow-moving storm, but didn't get more than a couple of drops of rain. However, the lightning was always within a couple of miles.

Eventually, the storm wrapped around us and the bottom fell out, and we finally called the game. The problem I had was this - I had cleared the field due to the lightning. After about 30 minutes, and no rain, but the lightning threat was still there, the players (and some coaches) started trickling back onto the field - throwing, playing pepper, and generally horsing around. There was no way I would have allowed this to happen if I were the coach, and expressed this to the GM, and was waved off. This did not sit well with me, but I let it go, and prayed like crazy nobody got hit by lightning. In hindsight, I will not allow teams to go back on the field if at all possible, but I felt somewhat powerless once I had suspended the game, and was met with indifference by game management. What would you do in this situation?

I like NOAA's very simple explanation:

"Thunder is the sound lightning makes."

Interesting. Thanks

[QUOTE]You are NOT the coach but an umpire. As an umpire you did YOUR job when the game was in YOUR control meaning you vacated the area.

What the participants do after that is NOT on you EVEN if something horrible might happen.

Perhaps this particular Legion group forgot about the following incident that happend.

6/4/09 Lightning Kills Little League Baseball Player. | WDEF News 12 | News, Weather and Sports for Chattanooga and the Tennessee Valley

In a nutshell you did your JOB which was to vacate the area.

Pete Booth

Screw Game Management. Once the game starts, YOU are in charge of the field, and YOU are in charge of whether the game starts again. It's your field - you cleared it for a reason, it should stay clear for a reason.

Obviously, Pete - from my above post, I disagree wholeheartedly.

We have this issue with track and field meets too. We tell them that "The track will open back up 30 minutes after the last strike" and they hear "We will start the next race 30 minutes after the last strike." So, of course, we have people jogging around the track to warm back up when there are still 10 minutes left on the clock...even while the announcer continues to tell them that the track is not yet open, please go back to your sheltered area.

I've never been the referee when this has happened, but I'd be tempted to start ejecting people for failure to follow the directions of an official. Don't know if baseball rules give umpires similar authority or not.

+1

If game management insisted that I restart a game before 30 minutes were up, I'd refuse (nicely, and with an explanation, but still).

I'd like to think I'd get my way on this point, and that they wouldn't intentionally endanger anyone. If they did, I'd leave.

You are correct once the game STARTS. The game is NOW suspended and you have NO jurisdiction on what happens there-after. The umpires have to go to safety to and we as umpires might not even be near the field depending on the field demensions. When the game is in OUR control we do our job according to the 30-30 rule.

We are NOT babysitters. The poster said Legion baseball which means young adults at the age of 19 and under. Some are in college.

It's like this.

Assume we get to the game and it starts to rain. We stop the game. After the rain passes, the HT does their best to get the field ready for play but to no avail.

The HC comes to you as UIC and says "Blue the field is unplayable we are done for today"

According to you it is YOUR field so are you going to override the HC and say I do not care what you think IMO, the field is playable and we are going to finish.

Are you going to stand there and EJ every player and coach that goes onto the field in which you vacted?

How about you call the game and you are on your way to the car and the players have practice afterwards etc. Going to say something then as well.

Pete Booth

You know, I had spelled all that out and deleted it as unnecessary ... but I forgot the audience.

Obviously, if umpire says play and Field admin says no, it's no. Just as if umpire says no and Field admin says yes, it's no.

And no, if umpire clears the field, it does not remove the responsibility of the umpire - please show me what makes you think that. Umpire is in charge of the field from Play ball to Ballgame.

FWIW, I agree with Pete. Stop the game, get yourself to a safe place. The rest is the coach's / BoD's responsibility.

In FED they specifically address when umpire jurisdiction begins and when it ends. In a nusthell, Umpire jurisdiction ends when we leave the field.

In the situation being discussed we vacate the area and then LEAVE the field and go to a safe spot. ONCE we LEAVE the field our jurisdiction ends. Players running onto the field AFTER we vacate the premises is now the responsibility of the AD/Coaches / league administrators / etc.

Pete Booth

Pete,

That is incorrect. What the FED rule book actually says is (my emphasis):

Since the game has not "concluded", the fact that the umpires leave the field for shelter does not terminate their juridstiction.

I concur with mbcrowder.

JM

The rule does not SPECIFICALLY address the situation at hand. The rule "assumes" a normal run of the mill game NOT a suspended game.

The game UNTIL resumed is for all practical purposes "concluded" at the time we leave the field.

I already brought up this point.

We get to the game and the rains come and the game is haulted. No differerent then if we FIRST arrive at the game and the HT is trying to get the field ready. In other words the decision to play or not to play PRIOR to us taking JURSIDICTION is with the HC or AD. Once we take the field THEN it's our decision whether to play or not.

Same thing here. We vacate the premises in accordance with the 30/30 rule.

If the players / coaches go back ONTO the field PRIOR to 30/30, it is NOT our responsibility. That responsibility rests with the AD/coaches / league administrators etc. Depending upon the field, we most likely are NOT at the field. We are in safety ourselves.

I will ask you this - How will you stop the players / coaches from going back out onto the field?

Are you going to start taking numbers and EJing anyone who enters the field?

Pete Booth

What are you going to say when a deceased player's family's lawyer says to a teary-eyed jury:
"This young boy would be alive today if the defendant, Pete Booth, had used his authority to eject players who persisted in being on his field in spite of the thirty-minute lightning rule, and he could have forfeited the game if ejection failed to clear the field. But no, he simply sat in his car, knowing that this young boy was in deadly danger on his field, and did nothing to prevent that boy's needless death, even though it was the job Mr. Booth accepted and for which he was paid. Please award this family Mr. Booth's life savings and more."?

For a guy who wants the death sentence for malicious contact you're pretty lax on this one. :D

First off I cannot forfeit the game

Second: I did MY job that I am paid to do meaning I vacated the field

Third: In all likelyhood the kids parents, legal guardian etc. are in attendance,
The AD / Coach / or League administrators are also in attendance.

If it was me no-way MY kid would go onto the field during a thunder / lightening storm.

I am not an attorney but I doubt my life savings would be awarded to the family ESPECIALLY if the family was in attendance and allowed THEIR kid to go onto the field.

The parents would be the ones teary eyed.

My job is to vacate the premises. After that it's up to the coaches etc. to handle.

But no, he simply sat in his car

Which is where we are supposed to be as the car is one of the safest places to be during a thunder/lightening storm.

You must be an attorney looking for business.

Pete Booth

Pete - we both know that is an incredible stretch for you to assume the rule that says we are in charge of the field from the moment we walk on until we leave at the CONCLUSION of the game really means until we leave during a delay.

The rule says what it says. It means what it means, using the words it uses. There's no "depends on what the meaning of Is Is" here.

And honestly, should kids get on the field and not leave when I tell them to, I strongly suspect coach would get them off if I asked. Probably wouldn't have to threaten. I would if I had to though.

I respect your view as a fellow official, but we simply disagree on this issue.

Pete Booth