Does the run count???
 

Crazy situation I heard about the other night. Trying to figure out if the run scores in the situation.

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits a ground ball to 2nd baseman. Instead of throwing to 2nd or 1st base to end the inning the fielder turns to tag the runner going to 2nd. Runner then slows down and gets chased by fielder and eventually tagged for the 3rd out. However, while this was happening, the runner from 3rd safely crossed home plate. Therefore, the runner crossed home plate prior to the other runner being tagged for the 3rd out.

Does the run score?

Thanks
Earl

I say that it scores because it doesn't fit any criteria I can find that would disallow the run to score.

Are you sure about that?

No run scores - look up the definition of a force.

Umpire, fan, parent, or coach? Just curious.

No run. Not even a thinker.

How about the criteria written in the rulebook.

No score.

Where did you look for this criteria?

The rulebook disagrees with your conclusion.

EHLNOLA,

See:

4.09(a), Exception (2)

and

7.08(e).

The run deos not score.

JM

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

By the above verbiage it leads me to believe that the runner was not forced out. Which then leads me to believe that the run scores.

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base
by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that
frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit
sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that
moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second,
and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman
thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making
two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no
run would score.
Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner
on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first
baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from
third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

My thoughts are this:

The runner was forced to second base. The 3rd out did not come as a result of a force play. Yes, the runner was forced to second but he was not called out for not beating the ball to the bag. The fielder did not use the force out to end the inning. He tagged the runner. Seems to me that by opting out of playing the force he went to his second action which was to tag the runner.

I may be way off base, but that's ok. I'd rather know for sure than think I know for sure.

I'm actually a basketball official that decided to umpire baseball for the first time this season. So I'm still learning all of the rules and ins and outs if you will.

Thanks
Earl

Earl....no run can score when the third out is a force. No matter how long it takes. Now tell me you knew that.

The criteria I was referring to was 4.09 which apparently I may have misinterpreted.

Forest: Yes I know that.

To explain my thoughts again, the action of the runner being tagged as opposed to a play being made to one of the bases in my mind means that the 3rd out was not a force.

And just in case you have no rule book handy, here is a link:

Official Rules | MLB.com: Official info

To further clarify, I believe that you are not understanding that even though the runner was tagged out, it was on a force situation, due to the batter becoming a base runner. The runner from first was forced to advance, so his tag falls under the definition of a force for purposes to determine a run scoring.

If, OTOH, the runner had not been forced to advance, such as the batter-runner trying to stretch a single into a double and was tagged, then the run would count if it preceded the tag.

Yes, you did.

Ok. I see where I went wrong here, other than over thinking a simple situation.

I'm focusing on the action of the player being put out and not the situation that it occurred during. I'm associating the tag with being a no force out. As opposed to remembering that even though he was tagged he was still forced to 2nd.

Makes sense now. Thank you guys.

Earl,

You didn't read 7.08(e), did you?

JM

Now you got it. A 'force out' can be made by tagging either the runner or the bag (not just the bag).

Okay, you are obviously not an umpire so let me try to put into layman's terms.

1. Bases are loaded, so any hit will cause a force play at any base. Got that part?
2. Now, in order to put out a runner in a force situation, you can either tag the base or tag the runner with the ball to cause that runner to be out.
3. It does not matter if the runner is running to the next base, caught in a run down or is back-peddling to the previous base - he is still a forced runner.
4. No runs can score when the 3rd out is a force, so it doesn't matter when the runner from 3rd crossed the plate.

So, if all runners are in a force situation and you either tag the base or tag the runner, no runs can score.

**** Umpires, please do not confuse the poster with the other reasons a run cannot score, let's try to get him/her to understand the situation that he/she posted. ****

Technically, it is a force out because he failed to reach second base.

Here's a play: Bottom of ninth. Score Tied. Bases loaded. Two outs. Batter walks. Batter and each runner MUST advance and touch one base for the run to count. Otherwise, they can be put out on appeal. That would be a force, and would cancel the run.

Same if batter is hit by pitch. In this case, ball is dead.

bsaucer,

There are so many incorrect things in your post, I don't know where to start.

JM

BB or HBP is a base award, not a force. The subsequent appeal will not cancel the run.

Let's work on one thing at a time.

Rule 2.00 FORCE PLAY: "A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner."

The scoring rule (4.09) refers to "any runner being forced out," which means put out during a force play.

So although it is true that R1 can be forced out only until he reaches 2B, that is a consequence of the definition of 'force play', and not the definition itself. Your statement is thus confused and an obstacle to correct understanding of 4.09.

Nice try.

Only the batter and R3 need to advance. The ONLY way you can get an out is if either the batter or R3 REFUSE to advance.

Others have pointed out that this is incorrect under OBR.

In FED, you would be correct.