Cowboy Joe Rips Yankees/Red Sox
 

Tell it like it is, Joe! All of baseball needs to step up the damn pace. 3.5 hours and longer is a joke!

I'm with Joe, but
 

for a completely clueless/fanboy viewpoint check out

Joe West - Sox Yankees games "Pathetic & Embarrassing" - Sons of Sam Horn

I laughed at this, mainly cause it's so over the top:

The NFL changed it's scheduled start times (Eastern)

Used to be 1:00 & 4:00

Now 1:00 & 4:15

Because games are taking over three hours.

But Hey - it's FOOTBALL so it's OK that the games are that long.

What's the wall clock time for an NBA game or an NHL game?

Why isn't anyone complaining about them?

Perception; they have clocks. You think you can know when it will end. Who knows when a baseball game will end?

For hockey, most games start at 6:05PM (locally) and they're over by about 8:40PM at the latest.

There are MLB games that start at 7:35PM locally that run until near midnight. No other sport has games that run (routinely) over 4 hours.

Also, the NFL has a 17 week schedule, and the NBA and NHL play half the games MLB does. Fewer games means I'm more tolerant of long games. But when my team plays 10 days in a row, I don't want to stay up till midnight every night watching night games.

I'll caveat by saying I attend a lot of games at all levels - HS, College, and Pro.

Baseball is the slowest with the most "potential lack of activity." The other sports you talk about all are faster with much going on (good or bad) and forced (albeit breif sometimes) activity.

In baseball, there is the possibility, that a pitcher and catcher can be the only action....and, if someone gets to first/second and we start shaking off pitches, stepping out of the box, and tossing the ball to the base, there can be a great deal of inactivity/slow action which can get boring.

I like em all, but there is a distinct difference between watching them all - especially in person.

I know this might not be popular, but it's just my $.2. Just saying.

And this is the exact reason I haven't taken my (just-turned) 3-year-old to a professional baseball game. His attention span isn't long enough to endure the pauses in baseball. He has been to a few of the games I've umpired, but he spends more time at the playground nearby.

I have taken him to hockey games, though. When the clock is running, there is *something* for him to watch, whether near the puck or not. And, when the clock is stopped, there's music and loud noises that keep him interested.

It's getting worse and worse for MLB. They must not care if they continue to lose their fans... took my son to Astros/Red Sox game last year and it was rediculous how much time they took between innings. I know they have to pay for advertising, but it was bad, and it was a low scoring closer game than some.

Last night Yankeees what was it 3-1. Should have been 2 1/2 hr.

Give me Greg Maddox on the mound anyday and lets get it over under 2hr.

Thanks
David

Because they are action packed. I am not an avid hockey fan as I once was but IMO it is a great sport to see in person. Action up and down the ice.

NBA and football are the same meaning there is "action" going on.

Baseball has too much "down time" within the game. Also, the Yankee pitcher's (although they will not admit it publically) do not like Posada to catch them. Constantly during the game when Posada catches he goes out and talks to the pitchers more then any other catcher I know of.

MLB needs to so something about player conferences. There should be ONE visit ALLOWED to F1 by any member of the team PERIOD. In other words if F2 talks to F1 that is a charged conference.

Also, forget about throwing 4 balls on an IBB. Use the FED rule. I know people will bring up Rolly Fingers pitching to Johnny Bench in the world series but in MLB how many times has their been a mishap on an IBB.

The strike zone. It is different from back in the day. More strikes need to be called and I am not talking about the Eric Gregg strike zone.

In other words when a baseball game takes 3.5 to 4 hours to complete for the most part it is BORING compared to a Hockey / football or basketball game where there is constant action.

Pete Booth

The NBA's brand of basketball has become a sad joke on what was once a wonderful game.

Curt Schilling blows a lot of gas, but some of what he says here is spot on:

"Not to mention [West] often times acts like he'd rather be any place in the world other than the field.''

"... Part of the reason their games are slower is because [the Yanks' and Sox's] offenses are so deep, and so good. Hitters never give away at-bats. Every pitch matters, on both sides, for nine innings."

"The reason the games are slow is very clear, and one not many will print -- TV. Ad revenue has gotten to the point that TV is allowed to dictate pace of game, not the game itself."

Gee - the NFL and NBA and NCAA have all those TV commercial time-outs where the players are just standing around sucking their thumbs for a couple of minutes at a time. Keep track sometime of how often commercials interrupt play and how long the interruptions last. It's dead time on the field when that's happening.

Most baseball parks have something going on during the breaks - whether it be the Phanatic, a sausage race, or something on the giant screen in CF - or in the minors the beanbag toss, toilet musical chairs, tee-shirt cannon, fan-quiz or whatever promotion is happening that night.

If you're bored it's because your team is behind and you have little faith in their ability to catch up.

I agree that TV is a major problem. What is it like 2:25 per commercial break? That alone is a minimum of 16 breaks in the game. That is over 30 minutes there(too lazy to do exact math).

I love baseball. I can stand to watch 4 hours of it. I think the problem is time. Many times, I don't have 4 hours to waste like that. It detracts from other things.

Football has a lot of down time. Actually, the average offense/defense is only playing about 20 minutes of the game. Much of it is standing around and letting the clock go down. Not to mention the clock stopping for incompletes and out of bounds. It is perceived different but it is very similar. An average of 30 or more seconds is wasted between each play. That adds up.

I agree that the clock probably makes the perception different. Everyone knows how much time is in the game unlike baseball. They know the end is coming.

Cut out the commercials and it would probably get a lot better. After that, then they can discuss rule changes. I think they need to get to the "heart of the matter" first -- TV commercials.

I went to the referenced story and found:

During spring training, Red Sox closer Jonathan Papelbon told WEEI.com: "Have you ever gone to watch a movie and thought, 'Man, this movie is so good I wish it would have never ended.' That's like a Red Sox-Yankees game. Why would you want it to end?"

Way to go Jonathan!

From a Yankee perspective: Watch a replay of the July 1 game where Jeter dove into the stands. Or watch the Bucky Dent game with Yaz popping up in the bottom of the ninth.

A Sox fan would add their memories - like the comeback from 0-3.

Tell Joe we don't care. It's Yankees-Red Sox.

This is true. NFL games in person can be very boring at times. Commercials after every punt, every change of possession, etc. I took my wife to her first NFL game a couple of years ago and she said "It's fun but they really stand around a lot".

That's a good point...any Div I football game or NFL game in person has quite a bit of down time...and you can't really leave your seat for fear of missing the "big play"

First NFL Game in England
 

When I was in the military (1980s), my buds and I crossed the channel from Germany and went to the first NFL game in Wembley Stadium - Cardinals vs Vikings. We had a blast.

We sat with a bunch of Brits who agreed (my recollection) to keep us in beer as long as we explained the game to them as it went along! How great is that. :cool:

Opening kickoff. Tackle. TWEET! One guy turns to me and says, "Where are they all going?"

I said, "What?" :confused:

He said, "The players, they're leaving the field. Where are they going?"

I said, "Oh. Those were the kickoff teams. Now, the offense and defense are coming on the field."

He said, "Oh, ok, in Rugby we just keep going. I don't see the point....."

It was great fun, best I can recall...... :p


Yep, there is a lot of downtime in all sports - especially tv games.

A Brit I know once described football as the quintessential American sport: "it features episodes of extreme violence, interrupted by a committee meeting."

Brilliant. ;)

Two teams that think Major League Baseball revolve around them. I'd rather watch Pittsburgh against Kansas City, to be quite honest.

NY vs Boston is something that cannot be understood by anyone West of NY & NJ. It is purley a New England thing and when the two teams meet, it is revenue time! Everyone from MLB right down to the corner bar profits from Red Sox/Yankees games. You would be hard pressed to find more loyalty to a team than you find with a New York or Boston fan and the revenue that is generated would out do any other park (if Fenway were larger). As much as I do not like the Yankees, I never miss a battle of these two teams because the rivalry will always be the best in baseball.

RE: - MONEY

When both the Red Sox / Yanks sucked no one cared about the rivalry.

I am not a fan of either but IMO, the Royals with George Brett and the Yanks playoff series were just as intense as any Red-Sox Yankeee game.

You had many dramatic thrills during those playoff series.

In other words for the most part when the teams suck the rivalry loses it's luster.

just look at Michigan / Ohio St. regarded as one of the greatest rivalries ever, however, now that Michigan sucks that game lost it's luster.

Pete Booth

Not being a fan of either is why you don't get it.

Ohio State - Michigan hasn't lost its luster in Ohio or Michigan.

I suppose. I lived in Boston for 3 years and I went to 3 or 4 games at Fenway. I really never got it, I guess.

I always thought the Red Sox were obsessed with the Yankees -- hearing chants about the Yankees when they weren't even playing, well, I found that a bit strange. I figured when they won their WS, some of that inferiority complex (which, frankly, a lot of it was) would go away, but it merely morphed into something else.

Now I'm just a Phillies fan living in Wisconsin with a Brewers season ticket plan.

Agree

Now, even I can understand it.

Oh yes it has...... When one team is non-competitve (like losing 8 of 10) it isn't a "rivlary". My $.02

I'll take the Giants/Dodgers rivalry anyday. ;)

Sounds vaguely like a "country music" lyric for the Badger State trailer crowd.

Apparently Country Joe has turned into a Uniform Police guardian also....

Yankees-Red Sox umpire ordered uniform changes - NYPOST.com

Just FYI: West had the plate today for Blue Jays/Orioles - time of game: 2:02.....:eek:

I am a Red Sox fan. I won't deny there's an inferiority complex involved, but after beating the Yankees in the '04 ALCS, it was more of a stick-it-to-them attitude, especially after hearing that "1918" chant for so long. A lot of it is just talk, as many of us (though not all) were on the Yankee bandwagon in '01.

As for game lengths, I enjoy those Yankee/Red Sox games, but good lord, I have over 100 channels, and unless it's a post-season game, I have a hard time sitting through nine-plus innings without grabbing the remote!

Someone should tell Pedroia that the Yankees and Red Sox can't play in the World Series.

Joe needs to be stepped on. Gray shoes? Really?

And him complaining about the length of games holds as much water as the same complaint made by the scorekeeper or organ player. Who cares? I mean, he works a plate every four or five days, and waddles around the other three! Cowboy Up, Joe! (or retire), Leave, and let one of the younger guys who will do your job in a heartbeat, at a third of your salary, move in. Plus, he won't tilt the field.

Any time the Yanks & Sox are playing each other post-season, it is, in effect, the world series.

Just more nonsense from a fan who thinks MLB revolves around the Red Sox / Yankees.

Try watching Ken Burns's BASEBALL, the so-called definitive documented history of the game. Wow! The Yankees and Red Sox are all that matters to these people.

Nonsense? OK.

What I hate most about this rivalry is it brings out the most uncivil and boorish behavior from some of the worst pieces of **** society has to offer.

Including Ken Burns!

The funny thing is that people who are fans of the Yankees or Red Sox have this idea that everyone else cares dearly about their teams or when they play. In reality, no one outside of the northeast gives a rip about it unless they're fans of the two teams. That matchup has no more significance than any other for the rest of us, but judging from the way ESPN shoves it down our throats, those are the only two teams in baseball.

Oh yeah, Kyle is right. Joe has nothing to complain about. Any of us would love to make a few hundred G's for umpiring and not have to worry about any other job.

Absolutely not true - we couldn't care less about what others think or whether they're interested at all. Only ESPN has that notion.

Yup, and when I went to the Yankees/Red Sox game in the new Yankee Stadium (I've been to all the ML parks -- except the new Twins park, of course -- and it just so happened the Red Sox were in town when I was) a lot of them were sitting in the same section I was. I'm sure glad I chose to take my 4-year-old to Citi Field and not Yankee Stadium.

Following Storyline from ESPN
 

Not sure if this point has already been made, but here is the link below.

Ump should be praised, not punished

Umpire Joe West should be rewarded -- not punished -- for his comments on pace of New York Yankees-Boston Red Sox series - ESPN New York



As far as game time issues and Joe West complaints, treat it like a good balk call.
Whether a balk happens in the first inning or last; see a balk, call it a balk, 5 words or less, and move on to the game.

I once had the "honor" of sitting near the "Bleacher Creatures". To say they are the most moronic or baseball fans in both an understatement and incomplete.

One would have to add, the most vile, vulgar, bigotted, mean-spirited, souless and despicable to come close to capturing their true personna.

All the above is true. I've sat in the old Section 39, and the new Section 203. It's the funniest nine innings I've ever spent in the stands. Pure R rated comedy, from role call to Frank singing "New York, New York".

If I want pleasant, I'll stick to going to Frairs tilts in Petco. Niiiiiiiiiiice baseball. But right field in the Bronx is an experience.

I wouldn't call taunting a developmentally impaired child entertaining. The shouts of "retard" and "MR" didn't bring a gaffaw from me, althought I admit those doing it laughed like he11.

Not that this is anything to be proud of.......
 

I'll see your "Bleacher Creatures" and raise you Philadelphia Phillies "fans"......They have traveled to Baltimore and Washington in droves to see their team play over the yrs - which is admirable. But, their behavior is mostly embarassing.

I was at one game many yrs ago where the crowd was THE largest in the history of the NEW Camden Yards......it also held the record for the most fights and most arrests.

And, while I live in N VA now, I lived and grew-up in east-central PA so I am not a basher as I have been to many a game at the ole - Vet Stadium.

PS - How many away, baseball games break out in a loud football team chant? E - A - G - L - E - S........ Eagles! Wild! and not family entertainment.

Growing up near Philadelphia and being a lifelong Phillies and Eagles fan, I'm aware of the reputation of the "700 level" of the old Vet. The Eagles fans are the worst, but I haven't gone to a game either at the Vet or at the Linc. Baseball games at CBP are actually quite tame in comparison. Of course, it's easy now when the team is as good as it is.

My experience didn't have to do with the Bleacher sitters in Yankee Stadium. I was in the upper deck down the foul line. This was the guy sitting behind me:

http://fronheiser.net/tshirt.jpg

What if baseball did have a clock? Hypothetical...let's say 2hr, 40min clock.

There are no "time out's for the clock. Live/dead balls - yes - but the clock keeps ticking. No time out for the clock. Not even for commercials or injuries ( I know - but let's have some fun with this). In the case of an injured player the ball is dead but the clock keeps ticking.

The game ends at 2:40, so long as it is an official game and both teams have had an equal number of at bats. In cases where the clock expires during an active inning the team at bat will be allowed to complete their turn. Should the home team be ahead at such time the visitors have completed their clock-expired time at bat they shall be declared the winner, or if they are tied or behind, the home team shall be allowed one final clock-expired time at bat. If during the home team clock-expired time at bat they score a go-ahead run the game shall be over with the home team being declared the winner. If after the home team completes their clock-expired time at bat they are still behind the visitors shall be declared the winner. If the game is tied at the end of that clock-expired inning the decision shall be declared a tie.

Should a game reach a conclusion of 9 innings with the home team ahead or behind in less than 2:40 the game shall be over. However, if the game is tied and time remains on the clock, additional innings may be played until the home team is ahead or the clock expires. In cases where the clock expires
and the visitors are ahead or the game is tied, the inning shall continue until both teams have had an equal number of at bats or the home team goes ahead. Regardless of the outcome the inning in progress will become the last inning. If the game is tied at the end of that clock-expired inning, when both teams have completed their at bats, the decision shall be declared a tie. If the visitors are ahead they shall be the winner, and vice-versa.

Then it wouldn't be baseball.

What's the question?

Thousands of youth-level games are played under similar rules every week. We see the problems the time limits cause. It would be worse at the pro level.

Agreed. I don't want it or think it could work. Just having fun with it.

Indeed.

A shiny new nickel to the first person who can tell me the last time travelling was called in the NBA.

1998? 1993? :confused:

Every NBA game I have watched. And I do not watch them very often as I am a fan of college and high school more than the NBA. I see that called all the time. What needs to be asked is when was the last time an umpire at the pro or college level enforced the time limit on pitching or being ready to hit the ball in the time limit that is already on the books? That is a better question.

MLB could change this problem tomorrow if they enforced rules and supported their umpires when those rules are enforced.

Peace

Poppycock. The NBA has become, as the person above stated, a joke.

But back to topic. MLB needs to work on the time issues.

It is clear you do not watch much basketball, so it really is not my concern if you believe it or not. Just know that it is called all the time if you watch games, instead of listen to media people that would not know a travel if it slapped them in the face at any level.

And yes they need to work on their time issue and the reason they lose a lot of people to other sports. Games should not take 4 hours unless there are 20 runs a game between the two teams.

Peace

Sure, once a guy has taken 4 or 5 steps.

I'm a Phillies fan and was watching the home opener on MLB Extra Innings today while trying to get some work done for my day job.

Howard was batting and Paul Schreiber called a ball on a pitch that, according to PitchFX, was at the knee. Two pitches later, Howard got a hit.

Riggleman came out to the mound and waited for Schreiber. He got about 5 words out and Schreiber tossed him. The announcers then spent the next 10 minutes ripping the crew and especially Joe West, who was at the mound coming in to play rodeo clown, if needed after the ejection. It got ugly -- both announcers were ripping West and saying how out of line he was and maybe the games would be quicker if they called more strikes.

For the Nationals, of course.

That loser franchise has a perfect set of (loser) announcers.

Just so you know traveling is based on the pivot foot and control of the ball, not steps. But then again you knew that right? :D

Peace

Which would explain a lot in the NBA and guys running with the ball halfway around the court with no travelling being called.

To be fair, under NBA rules, a player is allowed two steps after the ball is gathered. So a player could gather the ball with their right foot on the ground and would be allowed to step on their left which would be the pivot foot. In college and high school, that right foot would be the pivot foot. But you are right that travels are called every game.

Yeah, that happens. :rolleyes:

As I said, I do not watch a lot of NBA, but I see this called much more than I see many things called in MLB and the rules are clearly in place. And this might be the reason a lot of people turn off baseball when it comes to TV. At least when the NFL produces Monday Night Football, it is pretty clear when the game is going to be over. MLB during the post season has a game and the kids they claim to target cannot even stay up to watch the games. The NBA has way more marquee players or personalities than MLB ever has.

Peace

So then how can you see it called "all the time" if you don't watch a lot of NBA? ;)

I knew that too, but I am not speaking about this with a basketball official. This usually means that individuals allow media perceptions to dominate their thinking instead of reality. And if you watch a basketball game and not just listen to commentators, which BTW talk at the college level as if they know the rules to but do not.

Peace

Traveling is not called all the time at any level. The NBA is no different. It is actually the most inconsistently called or not called violation in all of basketball. I can show you multiple examples of missed travels at the high school level. You do not need to show NBA examples of this. But you said it was not called, I just said that was not true if you actually watch NBA games. Not what a pulled out highlight might show that took seconds in a 48 minute game. I am sure I can look at a missed pitch called in a major league baseball game or a missed balk, but that does not mean no one calls them at all.

Peace

It's called an intentional exaggeration no different from your "all the time" comment. :rolleyes:

There is a big difference between being called "all the time" in relationship to games and "being called every time." But then again, you said it was "never" called as you suggested by claiming that it was not called in over 10 years. I watched a game recently and I saw 5 travel calls in the first quarter. And traveling was called on some superstars in the process. ;)

Peace

The fact that my entire post began with the shiny new nickel offer should have told even the average 6th grader what the point of the post was to begin with. I'm sorry it went right over your head, although I did find your own rash generalizations rather amusing. :)

Do not let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 

Nothing went over my head. You just made a statement which was simply not true and were challenged on it. Then you had no answer for the challenge and now want to make it as if I missed your point. The point is you did not know what you were talking about and did not have an answer. It was a horrible comparison and why baseball loses fans of many demographics because they try to be so "elitist" to other sports, while never evolving in their way of thinking. Hey, it does not matter to me; I am not vested in a league that has the worst ratings for their major events in the sporting world. ;)

Peace

Your assignment is to look up the meaning of the word "exaggeration" and its common uses. Of course, I don't see you criticizing yourself for doing the same thing with comments like "all the time," despite totally contradicting yourself a few posts later.

For someone allegedly not vested in a such a league, you sure do spend a lot of time in the baseball section trying to correct umpires making posts designed to emphasize the absurdity of something. Perhaps you ought to stick to the other sports that you officiate if you're going to always be so critical of baseball.

Do not let the facts get in the way of a good story Part 2!!!
 

Thank you. I had no idea what I was saying. :rolleyes:


Have you really looked at the vast gaps in my responses or participation on this particular site?

Actually I will respond when I choose to. I do not care if and when you respond to this site, nor try to keep track. Get over yourself, you are not the only person that can comment on the baseball board because you claim to know pro umpires. ;)

Peace

I thought as much.

Just where the hell does that come in here? I didn't allude to that because it's not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Enough with the NBA crap.

If you want to discuss the NBA travelling rule and how often it's called, take it to the appropriate board.

This is the best comment I've seen on the subject so far. I think the K-zone tracker is one of the main reasons why games take so long. I've heard Pete Rose interviewed and saying "umpires are afraid to call strikes". I think he's wrong but close - umpires are cautious about calling strikes because every pitch is scrutinized first by technology, and then by announcers, few of whom have walked so much as 10 feet in plate shoes. The strike zone has been tightened up by the impact of that technology.

When watching classic games on the MLB network I am reminded of how wide the strike zone used to be. Something like 23 inches or more. Most games back then did not last three hours. I'm not saying it's the answer to the problem - just that it significantly contributes to the problem.

Last year in a semi-pro game with top-notch pitching I told the catchers from both teams that we are calling a 1981 strike zone tonight. The result? 9 innings. 1hr 40 min. Only heard one complaint from one batter - interestingly it was on a pitch right over the heart of the plate where he got fooled.

Sorry guys - I have no opinion on the NBA or when traveling should be called.

FWIW-The Montreal Expos used have one of the best minor league systems in all of baseball. They drafted and trained many seviceable major leaguers over the years. Some have made the HOF.

When Jeffrey Loria skipped out of town and bought the Marlins, he took a good portion of the staff and knowledge with him.

MLB took over the franchise and ran it into the ground. It is going to take a major rebuilding job to get them back to respectibility again.

I spent about an hour talking about the Expos with a friend of mine just a few weeks ago. The strike hurt them more than any other franchise. And the exchange rate (at the time). And Loria skipping town and MLB operating them on a shoestring budget were the final nails in the coffin.

I loved going to Montreal every couple of years for a Phillies series. I was there in September 1993 and was in a packed-to-the-gills Olympic Stadium watching the Phils and Expos play for the division. Phils took 2 out of 3 and won the division and went to the World Series. Montreal came back in 1994 and had the best team in baseball in the one year there was no World Series.

Quite right. The strike in '94 killed baseball in Montreal. It was the only franchise where the fans remained away in droves.

A tip of the hat for remaining a Phillies fan, for they have to endure the indignity of being the losers of more games in MLB history.

I went to my first game in 1976. I've been a fan ever since. My 5-year-old daughter just put a poster of the Phanatic on her wall yesterday (I signed her up for the Phanatic Club). She's hooked (I hope).

It's easy now, though. These are the salad days of the franchise. The Phils are one of the best teams in the bigs right now. Most of the stars are home-grown, too.

I miss having the Expos around, though. I'd much rather have them in MLB than the Nationals, who are barely drawing anyone even the first week of the season.

Nats don't win. IF you win, even the crappy stadiums fill to the brim. Look at the Twins..when they win, they filled the dome. Same will happened at our new ballpark...once the novelty wears off...if they stop winning, they'll be giving seats away.

You have to win. People have to many other options with their time than to waste it watching a crappy product.

Don't forget it wasn't too long ago when MLB and Bud Selig wanted to contract the Expos and the Twins. The Twins owner even thought it was a good idea.

It was a good idea, but it should have not been the Twins. I would advocate now the Marlins, Tampa or the Nationals still. Not going to happen because of the investment in those cities, but there are too many teams. Just like there are too many teams in the NHL, MLB expanded when they really were fine the way they were.

Peace

True Dat
 

Everyone loves a winner..... I mean, no one goes to see the Wizards either......

However, the Capitals are winners and have true Superstars on their team and the Verizon Center is sold out every game.

Build a quality product and they will come......and I believe (hope) the Nats are heading in that direction. They have a few good ball players and are of course banking on our boy Strassburg to save the day - I mean, they had 7K plus fans to see his debut in the minors last week.

Beautiful ballpark, hope it works out for them/us!