batter/runner unintentionally kicks blocked pitch
 

What's the ruling?

--Batter swings and misses at pitch that bounces for strike three with two outs.
--Batter/runner takes off toward first base
--Catcher successfully blocks the bounced pitch, but the ricochet off his gear pops into the stride of the running batter/runner
--The ricochet is unintentionally kicked out into the infield grass by the batter/runner
--The defensive pitcher and first baseman are unable to successfully field the ball.
--Runner arrives at first base safely.

The ruling at this game was SAFE. No penalty. Were they correct?

Can someone provide a case play that covers this sitch?

This was a 1-1 game at the time. Two batters later, a 3-run blast. Now 4-1.

If it's unintentional, then there's no call to be made. The umpires got it right.

Another way to look at it is the batter was doing what he was supposed to and a ricochet got in front of him and was unable to avoid it. It appears that you are a basketball referee so use your instinct here. How can you rule against the offense? You can't so you don't.

Had one like this in a college game where the batter actually kicked the ball (unintentionally) INTO THE DUGOUT. Sort that one out! I'll share the end results later in the thread....

JJ

I would say one base from the time of the pitch. What else is there?

One from the rubber. Two from the field.

JJ,

Had the batter become a runner on the uncaught third strike?

If yes, all runners, including the BR, are awarded two bases, TOP.

If no, the ball is dead and runners return.

JM

Wouldn't the runners get 2 anyway? Just like if the catcher kicked it into the dugout chasing it down. They'd get at least one base b/c the pitch went into DBT. I don't see them returning.

Darien,

The NCAA rule book contains the following Approved Ruling following it's third strike not caught rule:

JM

OK - well that's there in black and white, huh :confused::eek:

My take on the "if not" portion was along the lines of it wasn't an uncaught 3rd strike - it was "just a pitch" - I wasn't thinking about the DK3 with less than 2 outs and 1B occupied as I read it.

Mis-read, my bad.

You only give 2 from time of deflection if it either a) hits the backstop, goes back into the catcher, and then into DBT; b) the ball comes to rest and is then kicked in by the catcher; or c) the catcher intentionally kicks it into DBT. In a, the reasoning is once it kicks back into play it is no longer a pitched ball. In b, once it comes to rest, no longer a pitched ball. And in c, the catcher intentionally makes contact with a pitched ball, making him liable for whatever happens to it after that point.

If it is off the batter, I don't see how we can have anything but one base TOP. Same as if it never hit him. Its a pitched ball going into DBT. The ball hitting the batter after hitting the catcher on a 3rd strike does not change the status of the ball. It is still a pitched ball.

The ruling on the field, after much huddling and consulting of the rule book, was everyone was advanced 2 bases from the TOP. The book doesn't actually address this specific situation, but the logic was it was an unintentionally deflected pitch (as opposed to a pitch that had stopped rolling and was THEN kicked into DBT).
Neither coach argued - because nobody had ever seen it before and didn't know what the correct ruling was!

JJ

How could the logic be that it was a deflected pitch, so they get 2??? :confused::confused::confused: Deflected pitch is still a pitch, so its 1 TOP.

I didn't say it was RIGHT, I said this was the ruling on the field. I posted the incident hoping to gain more insight into what the correct ruling might have been. Of course you're correct that a deflected pitch is still a pitch, but the impetus for the ball going into the dugout was the kick, not the momentum of the pitch itself. That's why, when I had the incident described to me, I thought, "Hmmmm"...

JJ

It does not matter that the batter unintentionally made contact with it causing it to go out of play.

If we had a play at third and a thrown ball hit a sliding runner instead of being caught by the 3B, and then deflected into DBT, we still have a thrown ball out of play. This is no different, except it started as a pitched ball, and it remains, a pitched ball until it becomes either batted or thrown.

There's a difference between a pitch that is deirectly deflected out of play (1 base, TOP), and a pitch which is missed and is subsequently deflected out of play. There, the award is two bases, but might be TOP or TOT, depending on the circumstances.

In OBR, see 7.05(h) AR (that's from an old book, so the numbering mayhave changed).

NCAA has a similar rule (8-3.0(4)). Althought it talks only about a fielder deflecting the pitch, I'd apply it to the batter deflecting the pitch.

I may not be remember this totally correctly, and if so I'd certainly like to get it straightened out Bob.

In regard to the rule you cited, 7.05h AR:

Notice how it says the ball "remains on the playing field". This could just as easily say "and comes to rest", because I believe that is what it is interpreted as.

If a pitch is trickling to the dugout, and the catcher leans over, stumbles, and muffs it into the dugout, its one TOP because the ball did not come to rest. If he does so intentionally, he is considered to have changed the status of the ball to a thrown ball, and two is given from the time of that deflection. Same thing goes on a ball that richocet's off the baskstop, back into the catcher, and then into DBT, 2 bases, time of deflection.

I really am almost sure of this Bob, because I think 7.05h AR (the second paragraph that is) only applies when the ball comes to rest.
If someone has J/R or JEA on this hidden away somewhere, either way, now's the time! :cool: Don't care if I'm wrong, would just like to know it.

Tuss,

From the MLBUM discussion of "Balls Deflected Out of Play":


The bit about "..applies without regard to whether or not the ball woud have..." makes it clear to me that the ruling applies whether or not the ball has come to rest and that your assumption in that regard is incorrect.

J/R also has a case play that demonstrates this (Under the heading "Examples: Subsequent Push":

Finally, the JEA discussion of the 7.05(h) AR referenced by bob includes the following:

Again, no mention of the ball coming to rest - only that it must subsequently be touched to be considered "non-direct" and worthy of a two base (rather than one base) award.

JM

I think there's a good argument that 7.05h AR does not contemplate the batter (or B/R) causing the contact that directed the ball out of play. J/R uses "subsequent push" to determine the base award pursuant to 7.05h, and SP is defined as the action of a fielder. I vote for considering it still a pitch (or an in-contact throw) and awarding one base TOP.

It just doesn't seem right to award a runner two bases due to the actions of his teammate.

dash,

I think that's a valid question.

All of the interps I've found that support the two base award and mention WHO deflects it out of play always mention a fielder rather than a runner.

But I believe the correct interp is that you would treat it the same if it did deflect off a runner.

To me, the consistent principle is not so much who, but rather did the initial force of the pitch, as possibly modified by an initial attempt to catch the pitch, cause the ball to go out of play - or was there subsequent contact which resulted in the ball going out of play.

If the pitch "rebounds" off the catcher and is subsequently deflected out of play (unintentionally) by either the BR or a fielder, I'm going with 2, TOP.

JM

What is the difference between the uncaught third strike hitting a stationary object (backstop for example) as opposed to hitting a moving object (runner in this case)? They both have deflected the ball into DBT. The fielder or catcher did not attempt anything to provide momentum.

In the three interps you provided, none whatsoever have cited any inclination to award the B/R two bases.

BTW-I don't any believe any wording in any rule book supports a TOP two base award. If you are stating you would be awarding two bases from the TOP, I think your terminology is incorrect. As I stated earlier, one from the rubber, two from the field makes much more logical sense to me.

I had a situation where the batter unintentionally kicked dropped third strike into dugout. Using NFHS rule book I think the right call is BR (and any other runners) is awarded 1 base Here is how I got there:

When does a pitch end? Rule 2, Section 28, Art. 4 says "a pitch ends when a pitch ball is secured by the catcher, comes to rest, goes out of play, becomes dead or the batter hits the ball (fair or foul)

so,

we now go to Rule 8, Section 1, Art. 1 b ... a batter becomes a runner when
he is charged with a 3rd strike

so,

we now go to Rule 8, Section 3, Art 3 d...each runner is awarded one base if
a pitch goes into a stand or bench

There you have it.

Now if the ball had come to a rest and the BR kicked it then you have
interference.

What do you think?

There is case play to support unintentional "kicking" right in front of home plate if Batter/Runner could not have avoided kicking the ball. If he could have avoided it, Interference.

I don't think that's the right way to understand what happened. For one thing, the "teammate" didn't do anything deliberately other than run to 1B. But the main point is that the ball wouldn't have been deflected at all if the pitcher and catcher had done their jobs correctly. That's 2 screw-ups by the defense to 1 by the offense! :)

In other words, stop trying to be Solomon and just enforce the rule.

Oh, you won't hear that kind of thing from me. I don't mind people trying to understand the rationales behind rules. That and a few decades of experience can help you learn the game. :)

I agree that it is very important to understand the rationale behind the rules, because it makes them more easily enforced and explained.

BTW, I am bacccccccccccccckkk! After a year off to get settled, I have finally landed in a place that I can work games again. I missed this place and I am glad to be back...

Welcome back

I would count 1 defensive screw-up on a wild pitch and 0 for the BR.

As the arithmeticians say, same difference. :)

Great to hear that all is falling into place for you Bob. You were my original mentor. I still have notes from games you and I worked together. BTW, I'm starting JUCO ball this year. Happy New Year.