4th Out Appeal
 

Almost had my first 4th out appeal today in FED varsity game had it not been for the coach not knowing how to appeal. Runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out. Trouble ball to center, both runners take off and great catch is made. Problem was BU did not do a good job letting everyone know there was a catch which warrants a reminder to all, make sure to sell that play because it only leads to trouble later. Anyway coach calls time and goes to BU and ask "was there a catch and if so why didn't runners tag"? BU comes to me and coach follows and BU looks at me like "what now?" I ask BU did he have a catch, said yes. Coach says what about runners leaving earlier and I say we had no appeal... Bottom line was he then says I am appealing runner on 1st leaving earlier, he's out. Coach then walks off the field teams come out. Question: Since there was no appeal on runner at 3rd does run count because there was never an appeal concerning him?

I'm assuming no responses because only you as the PU would know whether
R3 scored before the 3rd out was registered?

Answer: yes, and you got the reasoning right. :cool:

I would make sure immediately to announce loudly to the scorekeeper that the run scored. That coach probably thought it wouldn't, and he should have a chance to ask about it.

You can say, "you didn't appeal that runner, and his run scored on a time play before the third out." When he asks whether he can appeal that runner, you'll get your advantageous 4th out.

mbyron, I don't think so in this case
 

Good sir,

You are almost, but not quite right right here. In the first post, the defense had left the field after the third out was made. So in this case there is no possible 4th out appeal.

Yes, the PU should point out the run scored, he should have done it as soon as the 3rd out was made. And if the defense has not left the infield, there can be an appeal on R3. But not in this case.

Yeah, I announced the run scored after the 3rd out which wasn't until iHC appealed runner leaving 1st early. It all happened rather sloppy for him because once I signaled out on the appeal his team ran off. When I announced run scored he wanted to know why? The real problem was the HC had no idea how to make an appeal and I was not going to help tell him WHO to appeal. But your right, once the defense left the field he was alll out of appeals. However, if he would have stopped his players from coming off and then appealed the runner leaving 3rd ealier I would have gotten my 4th out!!! BTW the game was over in 5 so coach wasn't upset about that run but I see now how that could become an issue in closer games.......

You can say, "you didn't appeal that runner,


I wouldn't say that.

I'd say "coach run scored before the 3rd out appeal, point at the plate and address the score keep/s, it counts. And attempt to go about my business.

Fed question.
Fed can still appeal with TO correct?
So, if the D leaves, coach finally figures it out, didn't leave the field could "he" still appeal? Or do you hold em to the defense left the field it's too late?

FED has made it clear that the outcome of a play should not hinge on a coach or player not knowing the rules. Hence, with catcher's obstruction -- where the offense might have a choice of taking the obstruction or the play -- we're to bring that choice to the attention of the coach. This mechanic is different from OBR, where we enforce the catcher's "interference" penalty unless the coach requests the play.

So in a FED game, I am going to apprise the coach of the reason for the run scoring, and probably in time for him to appeal R3 leaving early. Otherwise, the offense benefits from a baserunning error solely because the coach didn't know the rule about when runs score.

I'm not sure I follow your last question: it seems to be about dead ball verbal appeals. Yes, the defense can appeal verbally when the ball is dead; but such appeals are still limited by whether the defense is on the field. Once they've left the field, no further appeals can be granted for that half inning.

By "defense leaving the field," I mean the pitcher and infielders (see PENALTY 8-2, 1-5).

OK so the coach knew the runners didn't tag up and brought the issue to the umpire's attention.

Do you folks believe he must actually use the word "appeal" to have you call it? If so, why?

quote: "we're to bring that choice to the attention of the coach" I do not agree with this statement. I make the call "OBS" and the HC then has the option. The rules make it clear that the option is up to the "HC" to decide not the "PU." I don't "tell" the HC what he needs to do...

quote: "Do you folks believe he must actually use the word "appeal" to have you call it? If so, why? "

No but again, IMO I am not out there to "coach" the Coach... Just because the HC "knew" doesn't mean he was right. What he said was "don't the runners have to tag up?" Of coarse they do but since there were multiple runners I wasn't going to ask him which one he wanted to challenge... Why should I give the advantage to a HC who doesn't know the rules? Had the HC came over and said to me the runner on __ left eailer I would have considered that his appeal and ruled then and there. Thats not what happened. But very good point to remember.

Don't put words in my mouth. I did NOT say we tell the coach what to do. I DID say that we tell the coach what his options are.

That instruction is directly from Kyle McNeely. If you choose to ignore it, fine, but that's official FED policy about this kind of play.

Rich, if the coach said, "they both left early!" that would be good enough for me to rule on an appeal.

My sense from the OP is that the coach said (something like) "R1 left early!"

Rich from the OP

The coach is asking the BU "why didn't the runners tag"

IMO, that is NOT an appeal that is a question which quite frankly the BU cannot answer.

The runners most likely didn't tag up because they thought it was a NO catch.

The coach was asking a question NOT demonstrating an unmistakable appeal. If he wants to appeal, then do so.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=pastordoug;668633][QUOTE]Exactly what is meant by BU did not do a good job letting everyone know there was a catch? In addition you asked the BU did he have a catch? so if you didn't know there was a catch what went on.

RE: If there was NO call while play was in progress and then all of a sudden BU said catch, there is another FED rule that would take precedent meaning the UIC shall rectify any situation in which a call was reversed that placed either team at a disadvantage.


Exactly when did the coach come and talk to you? if the defense was off the field, then you cannot honor the appeal anyway.

In any event the order of appeals matters. Since he appealed R1 leaving early, R3's run counts.

Pete Booth

quote: "tell the coach what his options are."

I only interpretated what you implied (evidently incorrectly). But again IMO the coach needs to know what his options are and I shouldn't have to instruct him about this.... (I have clarified for the HC about his options after he ask).

BTW I have no idea who Kyle McNeely is. Just guessing that he has something to do with rule interpretation at national level?

quote: "official FED policy about this kind of play."

Would you kindly clarify this statement.... Are you saying that it is FED policy to inform the HC of "his" options each time we have a play involving OBS?

As with you I do respect each opinion and many times have greatly benefited from post on this forum.

Post it all Pete - also from the OP:

"Coach says what about runners leaving earlier and I say we had no appeal... "

Maybe that could be an appeal? The whole thing's kinda murky as to what actually happpened.

If a coach says "What about the runners leaving earlier?" to me, my response would be "What about them?" While I agree CI states to give the coach the options, I don't recall reading that wording anywhere else in the rules. It's not my job to tell a coach how to appeal. However, if he says he wants to appeal, I'll get the info I need to rule on the appeal:

Coach: "What abut the runners leaving earlier?"
Me: "What about them?"
C: "They left the base too early."
M: "Which runner?"
C: "The one at first base."
M: "So, you're appealing the runner at first left the base early and didn't tag up?"
C: "Yes."
M: "Okay." (rules on the appeal)

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that the coach knows the runners left early?

Is there any doubt that he has let the umpires know that he thinks the runners left early?

So why isn't that unmistakable?

Can a coach do a dead ball appeal in FED?

The WHY deny the "appeal"? Seems to me people are somehow requiring the coach to utter some magic phrase about it.

I agree that no "magic phrase" is required. Heck, if I see / hear a coach trying to get his team to appeal, I'll often just ask, "Coach, what are you trying to do?"

In the OP, however, it is NOT clear to me that the coach knew both runners left early.

And to me that's the key: it's clear THAT he wants to appeal, but not clear WHICH runner he's appealing.

Bob and mbyron

1) I did say it was confusing

2) On the other hand, the OP did say the coach used runners (plural) both times.

So he was appeaing two runners at the same time?

If he was appealing 2 runners, he can't in one sentence as far as I'm comncerned. the appeal has to be specific, does it not? Or are we going to allow "I appeal everyone on base left too early and missed a base", then letting me chose who to call out?

Further, sometime in this sequence the OP said the defense left the field, I believe after the first out was given on appeal. Once the defense leaves, as you all well know, it's not possible for further appeals.

and jkumpire too:

You mean I can't say, in one sentence, "I'm appealing that R2 and R3 both left early"?


You expect me to believe that's not valid?

I would say that's valid. I'd also say jk's example *might* be valid. I can see in my minds eye a play where it is valid, and a play where the coach is just fishing, or using it as an opportunity to "complain" about the umpiring, etc. In that instance, I would make him be more specific, and then begin to deny the complaints as allowed (and then, likely, have to run the manager).

Is that what he said?

He said:

"If he was appealing 2 runners, he can't in one sentence as far as I'm comncerned."

Or is my English comprehension somehow lacking?

I was referring to the coach, who, according to the umpire who was there said: ""was there a catch and if so why didn't runners tag"?"

Is that a valid appeal of two runners?

Well, then you quoted the wrong post.

And there were two different coach question references in the OP - how about the second one?

No, I quoted the post I meant to post. Sorry if it's not the one you wanted.

I don't believe the that quote is a valid appeal of one runner, much less two.

I asked two questions:

You mean I can't say, in one sentence, "I'm appealing that R2 and R3 both left early"?

and


You expect me to believe that's not valid?



And that's what you quoted in the response.

So given the confusion as to what referred to what,

So please answer my questions above.

And BTW yes, in the original OP I really think he was appealing both runners.

Wow, I didn't expect this post to go one like it has although IMO it has been very informative. But let me try and clear up, as the Original Poster, a couple of items.

First, let me make this clear that the coach was not trying to appeal both runners leaving ealier in 1 appeal..... He wasn't sure, IMO because of the BU not "selling" the catch, if there was a catch.... Then, after determining there was he went fishing

I think this is significate due to the fact that his appeal could, and as we found out, did make a difference in a run counting.

I also, will it might be a valid request as suggested by Rich, would still have the coach give his order of appeal because the outcome of the appeal isn't based on what the HC beleives but on what the PU or BU has seen. This could also result in runs counting or not counting.

Again, thanks for the information shared. It has been helpful.

And I, aprpropriately sticking to the informatin of the OP, rhetorically asked:

"Is that what he (the coach in the OP said?"


If the coach had so clearly appealed as you phrased it, I believe it would be valid.

My read of the post is that he did not.


I don't. The umpire at the time didn't. It even appears that the coach didn't.

He, at best, asked a rule question, which could have been a precursor to an appeal.

I suppose this is similar to how I'd handle it.

"What exactly are you asking me?"

"If you'd like to appeal, then please state your appeal to me."

Rich,

Having given your question some thought, I believe I would not accept two appeals in one sentence.

The reason is, there are situations where the "order of appeals" could have a material impact on the game, depending on the sequnce they were made.

I would not want any ambiguity regarding that sequence. So if a coach WERE to make a "compound appeal sentence" (assuming we're in a FED game, and Time has been called), I'd simply say something like, "Let's take it one at a time, Rich. What would you like to appeal?"

JM

The OP:

Runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out. Trouble ball to center, both runners take off and great catch is made. Problem was BU did not do a good job letting everyone know there was a catch which warrants a reminder to all, make sure to sell that play because it only leads to trouble later. Anyway coach calls time and goes to BU and ask "was there a catch and if so why didn't runners tag"? BU comes to me and coach follows and BU looks at me like "what now?" I ask BU did he have a catch, said yes. Coach says what about runners leaving earlier and I say we had no appeal...

By the OP, everybody in the park knows rthe runners left early.

Sorry Rich, that's not true. I am letting you, the reader know that both left. The coach "thought" they did but was not sure....

The it was poorly described.

It appears we all (W'all?) may be wrong:
8.2.2h: Following an inside-the-park home run, the defense appeals that both runners on base and the batter missed third base as they advanced to home.
RULING: This is a legal appeal. The umpire will rule depending on his judgment of the play.

So, multiple appeals can be made at the same time.

No one said that they can't be...it's in the how.

After reading this year's clarification to 9-1-1d I'm wondering if that run scores even if the coach does not appeal R3.

"When a third out is declared during a play resulting from a legal defensive appeal, which results in a force out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score)...

There wasn't any force out in the play at hand.

Help me out then how and when would that rule come into play?

biggravy,

It can only come into play on a missed base appeal when the runner was forced to the base he missed.

A failure to retouch appeal can never be a force out because the BR has been put out on the catch, thereby removing any forces.

JM

Sorry, I can be incredibly slow sometimes. I'm still wondering if it's incorrect to score this run under FED.

9-1-1 Exception C says "A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows: C. by a preceding runner who is declared out upon appeal because he failed to touch one of the bases or left a base too soon on a caught fly ball."

R3 is the PRECEDING runner and he was NOT declared out. A TRAIL runner was the one declared out.

No runner who came AFTER the third-out-runner can score. Those that preceded (came before him) can.

Got it thanks!

Good for you to be actually reading the rule book and asking questions about them. How refreshing! :)