Mark McGwire admits to long-term steroid use!
 

Mark McGwire finally nutted up and admitted to long-term illegal steroid use! (Well, he did so what little nuts he has left.)

McGwire admits to steroid use | MLB.com: News

McGwire admits to steroid use

Will appear on MLB Network tonight to discuss admission

By Matthew Leach / MLB.com

ST. LOUIS -- Mark McGwire acknowledged on Monday that he used steroids during his Major League playing career, including in 1998 when he broke Major League Baseball's single-season home run record.
McGwire made the revelation in a statement issued to news outlets on Monday afternoon. McGwire will address the situation further in an interview with Bob Costas on MLB Network at 7 p.m. ET on Monday. The program will be simulcast on MLB.com.

"I used steroids during my playing career and I apologize," McGwire said in the release. "I remember trying steroids very briefly in the 1989-1990 offseason and then after I was injured in 1993, I used steroids again. I used them on occasion throughout the '90s, including during the 1998 season. I wish I had never touched steroids. It was foolish and it was a mistake. I truly apologize. Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era."

The Cardinals announced in October that McGwire would be the team's hitting coach for the 2010 season.

Following tonight's exclusive interview, MLB Network's Matt Vasgersian, Mitch Williams, Joe Magrane, Tom Verducci and Ken Rosenthal will discuss their reactions to the conversation. Costas will provide reaction from location in California and MLB Network's Harold Reynolds and Peter Gammons will also provide commentary.

McGwire's full statement reads as follows:

"Now that I have become the hitting coach for the St. Louis Cardinals, I have the chance to do something that I wish I was able to do five years ago.

"I never knew when, but I always knew this day would come. It's time for me to talk about the past and to confirm what people have suspected. I used steroids during my playing career and I apologize. I remember trying steroids very briefly in the 1989/1990 off season and then after I was injured in 1993, I used steroids again. I used them on occasion throughout the nineties, including during the 1998 season.

"I wish I had never touched steroids. It was foolish and it was a mistake. I truly apologize. Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era.

"During the mid-90s, I went on the DL seven times and missed 228 games over five years. I experienced a lot of injuries, including a rib cage strain, a torn left heel muscle, a stress fracture of the left heel, and a torn right heel muscle. It was definitely a miserable bunch of years and I told myself that steroids could help me recover faster. I thought they would help me heal and prevent injuries too.

"I'm sure people will wonder if I could have hit all those home runs had I never taken steroids. I had good years when I didn't take any and I had bad years when I didn't take any. I had good years when I took steroids and I had bad years when I took steroids. But no matter what, I shouldn't have done it and for that I'm truly sorry.

"Baseball is really different now -- it's been cleaned up. The Commissioner and the Players Association implemented testing and they cracked down, and I'm glad they did.

"I'm grateful to the Cardinals for bringing me back to baseball. I want to say thank you to Cardinals owner Mr. DeWitt, to my GM, John Mozeliak, and to my manager, Tony La Russa. I can't wait to put the uniform on again and to be back on the field in front of the great fans in Saint Louis. I've always appreciated their support and I intend to earn it again, this time as hitting coach. I'm going to pour myself into this job and do everything I can to help the Cardinals hitters become the best players for years to come.

"After all this time, I want to come clean. I was not in a position to do that five years ago in my Congressional testimony, but now I feel an obligation to discuss this and to answer questions about it. I'll do that, and then I just want to help my team."

Matthew Leach is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

Not surprising but very disappointing. McGwire was one of my favorite players when I was a kid.

Roger Maris still holds the record for most home runs in a single season (61).

And they had to shove him out of the dugout to tip his cap after #61.

[QUOTE]
McGwire had his chance to "come clean" with Congress. His statement to Congress was a joke and he made a fool out of himself.

McGwire has seen other stars who have come clean.

1. Giambi - received standing O when he was a member of the Yankees
2. Manny
3. AROD
4. Petite

All the above were treated ok by the fans when they came back. Also, perhaps by admitting he took the "roids" will lead him to good standing with writers for the Hall.

IMO, it took way too long for McGwire to admit he took the juice.

FWIW: IMO Baseball is a joke of an organization. There still is NOT a test for HGH. Testing for HGH must be by blood sample and the Players Union renegged on giving blood samples. So even today players could still be taken the 'stuff" because there is not a test for it.

If they do vote players into the Hall who took the juice then they should re-consider Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson who in actuality never took the money. Cheating is Cheating however, baseball seems to draw the line when it comes to gambling and we will wait and see what happens to the Steroid era.

Also, people do not care. It's more of a media "thing" then anything else. Heck if a player was an android and your team won the WS the people would not care.

Pete Booth

Both extremely good points.

Wow!

Pete,

You can add Miguel Tejada to the list of well-received contrite juicers. Miggy was the guy who victimized poor Raffy Palmeiro, when he slipped the unknowing Raffy some juice and told him it was vitamins. Then Raffy threw Miggy under the bus. It was like when Sheffield and Bonds claimed that they thought the juice they were doing was flax seed oil and aspercreme.

We'll ultimately know how important admitting it is when A-Rod and Manny go in the Hall, and Bonds, Sheffield and Palmeiro do not. McGwire's stock was low for more than one reason, so he was never a sure-fire Hall of Famer even without the joke performance before Congress. But Raffy, Barry and Manny are all first-ballot locks without juicing findings.

let's not forget Mark's arch rival, Mr. Sosa in this conversation...in his last years, he didn't accidentally look 50 lbs lighter.

Hall of Fame Criteria, 40-40 good enuf?
 

How many of them juicers also stole forty bases?
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hi4040c.shtml

Good call!

I'm posting this twice in one week:

In other news, water is wet.

The last time I checked Steroids were legal when Mac was playing. And Maris and others had the ability to take the same drugs and amphetamines during their time (and did). I like what Bobby Knight said about Gatorade last night that is also a performance enhancer as well. So if "5 Hour Energy" and other substances that give you a boost too, but for some reason we think Steroids is the automatic elixir to make you better. There are a lot of players that were tested for Steroids and they were not much better than anyone. But I digress.

Peace

Well, he made a choice to use and it was his to make. The thing I find odd in all of this, was because he used BASEBALL enjoyed huge success both with the fans and in the pocket books. When he used it was not illegal and now sports writers want to keep him out of the hall. I could care less if he ever gets in, the point I am trying to make is that he is now one of the scape goats for MLB. They wouldn't regulate it, they made money off it, and all people can talk about now is that he did use it. We all knew he and they were using and we didn't care then. We loved him and them for it and we gave a lot of rich ppl a lot of money because they were using it.

You still have to see it to hit it. Amphetamines have been in the game for a long long time. There are several HOF members, that would they be evaluated today, would not be inducted because of their on and off field activities. They were not the best of men, but, they could play the game. Time will tell if Big Mac will be inducted, he was great for the game, donated and established charities within his communities. He was an multi year all-star and gold glove winner. If you keep him out, there are many others doing great things that also must be kept out. :rolleyes:

Exactly, LOTS of money!!

In the interest of accuracy, baseball may not have had any specific rules concerning steroid use at the time, but in 1990 steroids became illegal to possess without a valid prescription. So, they were illegal, just not against MLB rules.

Also it must be noted that his career started before 1990. And it must be noted that we have no idea if and when he used them illegally (under the legal system). All we know is that he took them. And for the record, HGH is not illegal in this country if prescribed. Now maybe a doctor was not doing the ethical thing, but he was not violating a law that we know of at this time.

Peace

Just ask Arnie how hard that was to get. He admitted using them a long time ago, under a doctors supervision of course.

Check again.

Regardless of what you like about Bobby Knight, when it comes to this topic he is an idiot.

Gatorade, 5 Hour Energy, Red Bull, etc. are NOT defined as Performance Enhancing Drugs. They, despite the billions spent on advertising, are not even performance enhancing substances.

Performance enhancing drugs are, in part, defined by their characteristic to improve PEAK peformance of an individual as opposed to something, say, like cortizone that may allow one to return to the level of performance they were at prior to an injury.

McGwire, according to his own statement and timeline, took steriods when they were illegal substances and lied about it until the statute of limitations ran out and the Cardinals made coming clean a condition of his employment.

He's a douche.

In the interest of accuracy: In 1991, Commissioner Vincent issued a clear and concise edict making the possession and use of any controlled substance by any major or minor leaguer a violation of MLB rules. Illegal steroids were against MLB rules as of 1991.

This argument, which surfaced when Barry Bonds's defenders sprang up, is as invalid in defense of McGwire as it was in defense of Bonds.

Actually his career started in 1981 and he was the Rookie of the year in 1987 where he hit 49 home runs in Oakland. I guess you need to check again. ;)

How were they illegal? Baseball made them illegal? Or the law made them illegal? And if steroids are illegal, why do people that have many diseases and conditions take steroids? I guess they are illegal to take there as well? People that have asthma and other muscle conditions can take and do take steroids. But hey, they are illegal right? And since Baseball (unlike Football) had a policy against these drugs, then I would agree that they were illegal to take as a baseball player. But they were not illegal according to the rules so he was doing what others were doing and playing against players that were also using them. No, we should look down on those that took amphetamines in the 50s and 60s because after all those are illegal too right? But that was a common practice to take those substances in those days and those enhance performance and always have. They took them to keep them on the field in a 162 or 154 game season. I think the book "Ball Four" took the cover off of that facade. So if we are going to be high and mighty about one kind of drug, why not another kind of drug that does essentially the same thing. But then again this should not matter because Baseball decided not to address the issue when it was clear there was a problem. But that is why I cannot watch Baseball half the time. Dumb people like Bob Costas (who clearly was not an athlete but only dreamed of being that athletically superior) actually wants us to believe that people that drank beer did not train and eat very unhealthy were better players than people that train 12 months out of the year and make millions based on their performance. OK, whatever you say. :rolleyes:

Yeah, that is how you catch them. I guess he should have sent a strong letter home to everyone's parents and that would have set the records straight on other issues too. :D

Peace

1. Are you really unaware of the distinction between anabolic and corticosteroids? Anabolic steroids are Class III controlled substances regulated by the DEA. Corticosteroids are either prescription or OTC drugs regulated by the FDA.

2. Are you really unaware that prescription medications taken without a prescription are illegal?

Okay, let's let Mark's statement speak for itself: ""I remember trying steroids very briefly in the 1989-1990 offseason and then after I was injured in 1993, I used steroids again," McGwire said in his statement. "I used them on occasion throughout the '90s, including during the 1998 season.""

Now do you understand? He used steroids after they were made illegal without prescription under the laws of this land and after MLB prohibited their use completely.


Asked and answered.

If? IF?????

Oh, my God. You seriously don't know the difference between anabolic, androgenic and cortico steroids.

Yes they were. Even McGwire knew that. What keeps you from understanding that?

Here is the thing, we do not know what McGuire used or did not use. We do not know the doses or the frequency. It is not about what the terms mean right now, because no one has said what he used or did not use and how he used. All he said is he used "Steroids." And for the record there was an NFL player that violated league substance abuse rules and won in court because he was taking a substance for asthma. You can name all the substances and the differences, league outlaw a lot of things that are legal by the FDA to take and not all substances can be taken legally without a doctor's supervision and within some guidelines. The interview I saw, McGuire did not shed light on anything specific he used or said how he got it. He only admitted to using. I guess I would need more detail and you will never get me to think a player that drank and smoked were better off than players that take care of themselves in order to workout year round as opposed to a bunch of drunks (insert Mickey Mantle here) that did nothing but booze and party every night and they had games the next afternoon. If a player is seen in a bar or club and have a game the next day, that makes front page news.

No I am not. Much that I referenced the issue in my previous thread as well. And we have no idea that he was not given a prescription or not given a prescription. But then again, you must know something the media has not reported yet. ;)

Peace

I guess you seriously do not know that leagues like the NFL does not make a distinction and outlaws all those drugs and WADA is even more strict from an Olympic point of view. I said this before, there have been NFL players that were suspended because of taking legal and prescribed substances, but the NFL still suspended those players because these are not legal substances. And in some cases the NFL had to be taken to court to either reduce or allow players to play that were taking prescribed substances. Baseball has the worst drug policy in all of professional sports in this country and did not even have a drug testing program that included PEDs until 2005. And the penalties were minor until recently if caught. Whereas if you did so in the NFL, you were put into a program and might be suspended for an entire season if you were caught with such a substance. Baseball had to wait until they were brought to Congress and participate in a hearing before they took drastic steps to make any steroid illegal through testing. Just writing a letter telling everyone you do not approve is not enough. BTW, players in the NFL get popped all the time for over the counter substances that are deemed illegal by the NFL.


I seem to understand the issue better than you do. Because what is legal in the law is not legal in sports leagues or in the Olympics no matter what you can take with a prescription. And you must not understand that those organizations just do not say they are illegal, they test for them. And WADA even holds testing material so when they develop tests later they can find out if those are taking substances that are considered illegal.

Peace

My head hurts.

My mistake. I thought we were talking about baseball and the use of PEDs which are illegal without a prescription and which were specfically banned by MLB. (MLB did not ban the other steroids when used with a prescription.

I'll just leave it at this, Mark McGwire admitted to the illegal use of substances banned by baseball and stated that he used them during the time they were illegal and banned. His admission is clear. He has no need for apologists. Save your efforts and "through the looking glass logic" for the next round Barry Bonds will go through.

Now, where the heck is that ignore switch again?

It should, because it shows you cannot deal with the actual facts and want to just say something is illegal because you are carried away with fantasy issues.

Peace

Okay, I'm not speaking to its effectiveness; I'm merely stating that it was against MLB rules since then and that Barry and Mac and all the others were violating MLB rules by doing steroids before the actual individual substances were officially banned.

You are a shameless Barry Bonds apologist and you will scale any height of ignorance on this issue to simply make a case in his defense. Bonds's actions in every phase of his life make Mark McGwire look like a Boy Scout.

A: All controlled substances--and not just those previously listed--were against MLB rules starting in 1991.

B: Unprescribed anabolic steroids have been a controlled substance since then as well.

SEE: All major league players, who used or possessed unprescribed anabolic steroids after 1991 were breaking MLB rules and federal law.

You can say it is, but there was no policy to suspend or ban any player that used anything we call steroids. Either way it goes, we are trying to use revisionist history to penalize someone that did not get banned or violate any drug testing policy. I guess I should say after the fact that it is illegal to talk on a discussion board, 10 years ago, but we had no policy against such action 10 years ago. That is about as much sense as what you are saying makes.

Peace

I honestly do not care Kevin. These records do not mean anything to me. Who won the games is all that matters and basing someone one who did something 100 years ago as if no one could pass them is also silly. Barry Bonds did not win any more games, neither did McGuire. Michael Jordan was not judged as truly a good player until he won something. He was one of the greatest scorers and he was not judged to be the best until he won multiple titles.

Bonds did not even win a World Series. McGuire came up small in the post season often even when they won in the late 80s with Oakland. He did not get back to another won after he left Oakland. If McGuire is a Hall of Famer, he is only that way because of his bat. And with smaller stadiums and places were the ball launches out of them without much effort. Hell there is now drug testing and look at what happen to the new Yankee Stadium. There were just about as many home runs as there ever was in the old stadium. No one pitches inside anymore and the game is played for power as opposed for pitching and defense. And you want me to be apologetic for Bonds?

I could give a crap about some record and the fact that some clown actually thinks that players that boozed it up every night and went to games on a train are better at hitting a ball than someone that has technology and training (no matter how they did it) is the reason baseball is going to continue to lack behind the other sports. I do not care what Hank Aaron did 50 years ago anymore. I certainly could give a damn what Babe Ruth did, he did not even play against the best players of his era on a regular basis. But we are outraged over some drugs when we have more teams, more sorry players and compare that against an era that did not let some of the best players even participate because of their skin color. Sorry, this is not about Bonds, McGuire or anyone of this era. No wonder the NFL and NBA pass the MLB by.

Peace

Could you quote your sources on this?

I'm just curious because according to MLB and the Mitchell Report, steroids were covered by the ban on prescription drugs taken without a prescription that went into effect in 1971 and then were specifically named and banned by MLB in 1991,

Any major league player who took steroids with or without a prescription after 1991 was in violation of the MLB ban and, if he did so without a prescription, was in violation of Federal Law.

These are facts that are backed up by the Mitchell Report and Major League Baseball.

Major League Baseball drug policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

Yes there are sources that references what could be taken at that time.

For those that do no want to read, the policy was taken into affect in 2006.

Peace

Clever.

Those refer to the new policy implemented after the Mitchel Report that REPLACED the ban that was already in effect since 1991. The new policy provided specific punishment rather than leaving it to the commissioner on a case by case basis. Never the less, steroids were already banned back in 1991.

Baseball's Steroid Era: Written Steroid EraTimeline

Jun. 7, 1991 – Commissioner Fay Vincent Issues Memo Regarding Steroid Use
After the U.S. Congress raises penalties for steroid possession, Commissioner Fay Vincent sends a memo to each team indicating that steroids would be added to Major League Baseball’s banned list. The memo stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't include a testing plan -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.

What was the penalty with the old policy? A stronger letter home to mom? Did anyone miss games?

Was there testing? And how did they determine someone was using those drugs? Lie detector testing? Media reports? Parent letters to the commissioner?

I guess the Olympics got it all wrong, they actually test for substances rather than take someone's word for it. :rolleyes:

Peace

Stick to the topic. You have been claiming that there was no ban on steroids. That is patently false.

If you want to talk about enforcement, that's a different issue. What everyone here has been saying is that McGwire violated MLB policy and Federal law by using steroids without a prescription. And that is the truth.

The fact that he wasn't caught or or wasn't punished has nothing to do with it.

Just becuase you don't get a ticket everytime you speed doesn't mean you didn't speed.

You're starting to sound like a coach...."It's only illegal if you get caught."

I did not say there was absolutely no steroids ban, I said that there was not testing and they were not illegal to use for all kinds of reasons. And to say there is a ban, but we are going to look the other way is not much of a ban. You can play the semantics game all you want to, but there was no way to find out who was using and how as other sports had drug testing in place that clearly banned not only steroids but many other substances as well. And there was no policy to suspend players for such usage. The union and the owners had not agreed to such a policy so it was allowed no matter if MLB tried to say it was illegal in a memo. To make something illegal you have to have a policy and a standing punishment in place. Maybe I am missing something, but I have never seen a law that makes something illegal, but we have no punishment for the crime. That is basically what MLB did. And BTW, Big Mac took Androstenedione and had the substance in his locker in 1998. It is a steroid or has steroid substances in it and Big Mac was never suspended for it and was never told to stop using it. Bud Selig even was asked about this substance and he knew nothing about it and claimed there was no steroid problem in baseball. Mac even openly talked about it in interviews and talked about how it "helped me recover quicker from working out." Then I believe the following year MLB outlawed it, but as before did not test for it to catch people that were using the substance.

You can call it whatever you want to, unless they test for a substance, it is not illegal. Memos do not make them illegal unless you have a way to prove someone is using something. MLB turned the other way until Congress called them to the carpet and Canseco wrote a book on the topic.

Peace

Fodder
 

Really?

According to MLB and the Mitchell Report and the Players Association steroids have been specifically banned since 1991.


Andro was legal at the time. No one has stated otherwise.

In your world perhaps. but in the real world the ban was not conditional on testing and still isn't. The ban is the ban. Testing and suspension are distinctly separate issues. Just like in the rest of the society, a criminal act is a criminal act, it is not defined by its punishment.

You may wish otherwise, but that's all it is, a wish.

Again, you can play the semantics game. How about this, name one player before there was testing that was suspended for steroid use? Just one will do.

Let us take it a step further. Bonds was linked to the Balco situation and he was never suspended and allowed to break Hank Aaron's record well after many players were linked to this company. If there was this ban, why was Bonds not suspended by MLB for using of steroid. He admitted to not knowingly taking a substance that he thought was steroids, but was found out to be some kind of steroid. If it was banned, then why was he allowed to continue to play? And if steroids were banned, what does that have to do with this discussion now? The Hall of Fame does not have a policy to keep players out that were known steroids users. There is no such policy, but you claim there was this clear ban.

Peace

Me playing semantics? That's rich.

I have no idea if there was one. Suspension has nothing to do with the FACT that PEDS were banned.

Now, answer me this, yes or no....was steroid use by MLB players, without a prescription, illegal under law and prohibited by MLB from 1991 forward?

Hint:

According to the Mitchell Report, Congress, MLB and Mark McGwire, the answer is "yes."

Your answer is? Remember just yes or no. No "playing semantics."

But there should be. You keep talking about a ban, but what does that have to do with this discussion. Big Mac was never suspended as neither was Sosa, Bonds or even Alex Rodriquez (and he admitted to using and is a current player).

Pacman Jones was accused of getting in trouble with the law; he was suspended for a year. Michael Vick was not even convicted yet and he was suspended indefinitely by the NFL and the commissioner. But many players were accused of using a drug and in some cases proven and nothing has happen to them in Major League Baseball. There are well over 100 players in the Mitchell Report and not a single player has been suspended for what they were accused of in that report. Man, those are some really mean laws on the books.

Peace

I answered your question, but you continue to refuse to answer mine.

Maybe you just forgot?

Remember, one word answer.

You have not asked me a reasonable question. And no you have not answered my question. You are just playing the semantics game and saying something is banned, but showing absolutely no relevance to this discussion. The point I made awhile back is that there was no action taken by MLB for what any player took at any time. The Mitchell Report involved current players and those players have still to this day (since there was a ban and all) have not been suspended (for anything, but there was a ban remember). And guys like David Justice were also in the Mitchell Report as well, but only was in the report based on what someone said he had a conversation with someone about steroids. Nothing said that Justice was seen using or failed a drug test of any kind during his playing career. But let us not let facts get in the way of this discussion. I am still trying to figure out how you ban something, but you punish no one in the process and no one has been punished based on the report you keep referencing. ;)

Peace

Okay, Mr, Rutledge, I get the hint. You won't answer my question. So, I'll have to make do with what you've already said to demonstrate your level of understanding.

Who could forget:

"The last time I checked Steroids were legal when Mac was playing."
(MLB banned steriods in 1991 providing unspecified punishment. Testing and punishment were added by Selig in 1997)

"And it must be noted that we have no idea if and when he used them illegally "
(McGwire has admitted he used them illegally and prrovided a timeline.)

"People that have asthma and other muscle conditions can take and do take steroids. But hey, they are illegal right?"
(As we all know, these are corticosteroids and were not banned.)

"Here is the thing, we do not know what McGuire used or did not use."
(McGwire claims he illegally used banned steriods.)

[QUOTE=Ump153;650891]Okay, Mr, Rutledge, I get the hint. You won't answer my question. So, I'll have to make do with what you've already said to demonstrate your level of understanding.

And you still have not explained to me how something is illegal was not tested for. And you still have not explained to me what punishment was a result of getting caught for such substances. And you still have not explained to me who during this time frame was suspended or banned from MLB at this time. You can say there something is illegal in MLB, but there is no punishment for taking them in any way. So I stand by the fact that these substances were legal because even the people in the Mitchell Report that are current players still have not been punished for either taking them or admitting to taking them. And I am not the only one that has said that. Many media people have said the very same thing and they cover the sport. This is not a new or novel idea I am talking about. A memo alone does not make something illegal. You have to have a policy to verify something illegal is being done and punish those that violate the laws.

Mac did not get punished or violate any drug policy in his entire career. And he certainly did not get punished in 1998 when he said he took them during his record setting year.


Illegally meaning the law. In other words, he was not prosecuted for having them in possession (which is illegal without a prescription). He was not ever criminally charged for using (which is illegal without prescription). No doctor was charged for giving them to him. He never stated in the interview where he got steroids from or how he got them (he had to get them from somewhere). He only admitted to taking them, he did not say he got them illegally. You can still get steroids legally under the right circumstances. You can even get HGH legally under the right circumstances. HGH is used for anti-aging purposes, but if you play professional and amateur sports, you will not be able to play while taking them and they are found in your system with a drug test.

Are you saying that only anabolic steroids the only illegal substances in MLB? I do recall that Manny Ramirez was suspended this past year for a substance that was not a steroid. If I recall it was a substance for a pregnant woman to use but somehow helpful for a man to use as a PED. Which again goes back to my original position on this, MLB did not have a comprehensive drug testing policy. Saying you cannot use something and never test for it with urine or blood test is not comprehensive. And you forgot to quote my comments about the NFL and how they put a player on the drug program that tested positive for a ban substance that he used for an inhaler for his Asthma medication. Again, the NFL had to back off because he had a prescription to this substance. MLB had no such policy and allowed players to take things like Andro (which was banned in the NFL too in 1998) but MLB turned the other way.

Being from Chicago I remember Jim Miller who was a QB in the early 2000s was suspended for taking an over the counter medication and it was found in a drug test. He was suspended and put on the drug program in the NFL. This was not a steroid, but something found in common over the counter legal drug that anyone can buy he was suspended for. And when he tried to say he did not know this was banned, he was not given a pass by anyone. MLB had no such policy and allowed their players to take anything. Oh, I forgot, they banned steroids but they did not test for them. Riiiiggghhhtttt!!!!

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...olleyes010.gif

What was the substance that Big Mac took? Do you know? Did he say in his interviews on MLB Network and ESPN the last couple of days? I will be waiting for the substance (very specific) name as we do not know what he took and in what doses. He never said how he got them or who gave them to him (which still could have been from a doctor for all we know).

I realize reading and understanding are hard for some people, but you have not answered any of these questions. ;)

Peace

More on the subject.....
 

Who really gives a crap anyway? Does it affect you or your paycheck? All this mess does is bring baseball down yet another notch. Baseball banned the Chicago boys but kept a beer toting philanderer like the Babe. They threw out Rose because he put a black eye on the Game yet they turned the other way with "juice". Face it, Baseball just does as it pleases to keep face and all the pi$$ing and moaning from the fans won't do jack crap to fix it. Personally, I could care less who is in the Hall of Flame because it does nothing for me or my life. My input as to who gets into the Hall means nothing so I don't bother to argue. Baseball is like the Government. Don't do this today but tomorrow you can do it all you want - as long as we are not looking.

Get a life, people! You are just umpires and fans of the Game. try to remember your place!

"Beer toting philanderer"?? You're talking about Babe Ruth!

You are being astoundingly shallow in your judgment of the man who is the single greatest contributor the game has ever known. He was also the most famous and popular man in American life in the first half of the 20th century.

And you're going to take it all away by highlighting his beer drinking and philandering? And you are the judge? You interpret the rules by which all should live? I suppose if we all just sit back and only listen, you can tell us all how to lead a perfect life like yours.

Try to remember your place.

I think this says it all about your struggles with fully understanding this issue, and how it is being addressed.

MLB has been a mess ever since they got rid of the "Traditional" Commissioners role and named Bud Sileg an owner Commissioner. Had their been a TRUE Commissioner there would have been testing.

It wasn't until MLB got Embarrased on Nat'l TV during the Congrsssional hearings that BUD did anything. Also, there STILL is no test for HGH.

IMO, Mac is SELFISH as evidenced by his admitting Steroid use AT THIS TIME. Why!

1. I think Bob Costas NAILED it when he talked about the statute of limitations being up. I think it was 5 years.

2. Most of America especially those in NY where the Jets advanced to the next round are in NFL mode and therefore, Mac wouldn't be a major headline for too long. Today most of the talk shows and nation are back to football.

3. He wanted to get this "out of the way" before Spring Training so he doesn't have a big media circus.

Also, what a joke of answer when Mac said that steroids had no bearing on his hitting 70Hr.s He used the "stuff" strictly as a healing agent and that GOD gave him this great gift. He talked about LL , legion and HS ball. What a joke of an answer.

Hey Mac hate to break it to you but Micky Mantel (prior to his injury and bout with alcohol) had as much GOD given talent as any athlete and instead of using booze if Mick used the juice he most likely would have hit at least 800 HR's. What about Frank Robinson, Willie Mays and Hank. You think you had more GOD given talent then those folks. But that is America. people "bought into" ARODS Story and they most likely will by into Mac's story as well.

I too do not give a hoot about the Hall, HOWEVER, if MLB is going to vote these cheaters in then IMO they need to Re-think about Rose and Shoeless Joe who as I mentioned previously in actuality never took the money.

Pete Booth

Rose gambled freely as a player and a manager for years and went to prison for tax evasion. Jackson was a small part of one fixing scheme.

You can't compare Rose's and Jackson's cases. Rose's risk to the game was significantly worse.

Obviously that is matter of opinion.

Cheating is Cheating. It's just a matter of which type of Cheating you condone. Also, how was Rose's risk to the game significanlty worse then those that cheated using the "Juice".

Paul Horning bet on football and was suspended for a year BUT that did not stop him from being elected into the PRO football Hall of fame.

If the Hall is about CHARACTER then at least 75% of the players already inducted should not be in there.

Also, IMO Shoeless Joe did not "throw" the game and NEVER did take the money. He was an innocent bystander who got caught up in the mess.

Pete Booth

Isn't that a comparison? :rolleyes:

Debating JR is like the proverbial "nailing jello to the wall." His logic is fluid with no constraints. He ignores facts. He creates facts. He changes his positions then denies doing so. He will deny saying something that can still be seen in his prior posts. Then he will lock on an argument that is so absurd it can hardly be debated within the confines of broadband. (For example, "if no one has been punished for a certain action, no law or prohibition against that action can exist.")

Fortunately he is unique. If you will note, not one of over a hundred posters at this site agrees with him, which gives us hope for this site.

My advice is to give up. You can present facts, you can demonstrate reality, you can discuss possibilities. You can't make someone think.

Ah, but there is one more part of the story
 

Kevin,

You are right: Shoeless Joe was acquitted in a trial over the illegalities of the Blacksox scandal, and therefore he should be eligible for the Hall of Fame. Pete Rose is a different case, as you state, and should never, ever be considered, which is a great tragedy.

No, cheating is not cheating. That is a narrow and dangerous over-simplification. There are degrees to everything. And that's not a matter of opinion, it's the way our entire system works.

And if you can't discern the difference between an individual trying to enhance his performance, and a MANAGER trying to illegally capitalize on his team's performance by gambling on their games, I don't know how to help you.

Rose violated baseball's sacred code as a player AND as a manager for a dozen years. And he went to jail for tax evasion! And everyone around him went to prison for an array of felonies, including cocaine trafficking! Rose's campaign, by its mere duration, was a series of violations of a drastically higher degree than Jackson's, or any other gambler or certainly any juicer or bat corker.

If you want to lump all kinds of cheaters together and brand them all, you go right ahead. I have a broad and thoughtful approach, and I can't be confined to such a simple outlook.

Semantics.

Here goes: You can't liken Jackson's violation to Rose's.

And I thank you for making me scratch my head and change that.

Rose is a low-life and he broke laws (federal and baseball), but he never bet against his own team and he tried to win every game 100-0. That doesn't mean anything to the HOF suits, but it does to me.

When you only bet on your team, it is a signal to gambling insiders that there is a reason to bet against the Reds that day.

One day, Pete left his post in the Reds dugout to watch the Belmont---right in the middle of a game, and during the '89 investigation that led to his banishment!

The Reds, and winning baseball games was a sidelight to Rose's nefarious existence.

While I am not naive, nor a purist, I find that number a bit high.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth:
If the Hall is about CHARACTER then at least 75% of the players already inducted should not be in there.


And how can one be as impulsive and imprecise as that, and still expect to be a credible judge of another man's character?

So true, so true. And no matter what anyone says, baseball did not outlaw taking substances and a memo does not change that. And this situation with Big Mac was created by the powers that be. They only have themselves to blame and why they will have to deal with players that were the best of their era under complete and total perception of cheating the game no matter what you think. And you have arrogant media people who want to say someone that they never saw play were better than current players. It is all kind of humorous to me.

Peace

http://www.steroidsinbaseball.net/assets/memo.pdf

And the truth shall set you free.

Jeeze, legality and enforcement principles are two completely different things. You think any decent umpire would understand that.

You'd think, wouldn't you?

Then again, perhaps the difficulty lies in the qualifier in your second sentence.

Interesting. The 1991 ban came complete with testing and discipline. Puts the lie to J/R's babble, doesn't it?

I'm sure he'll invent something to dispose of this reality as well. In fact, it should be coming soon...wait for it...here it comes...

You would think.

Obviously you do not understand the difference. Pete Rose is banned from baseball. He cannot hold a position in baseball. He cannot watch a game in a baseball stadium. He cannot even help out in spring training with players and teams and pass down the wisdom of hitting.

Mark McGwire is currently the Hitting Coach for the St. Louis Cardinals. Not only has he admitted to using what you call an illegal substance and was never suspended as a player for using any substance and all his records stand. But I guess steroids were banned right? Funny how the same applies to Sosa, Bonds, A-Rod, Manny or any other player that admits or found to using steroids or any illegal substances. Better yet, if other teams wanted to hire those individuals I just mentioned to positions in the front office or on the managerial staffs of those teams, they could. Wow, that must have been some memo. ;)

And if the sports writers choose to vote McGwire in the HOF, they can. If they sports writers want to vote Rose into the Hall of Fame, Rose is not on the ballet. But you seem to have a good grasp of illegality and punishment. :rolleyes:

Peace

+1.

I generally ignore his logic-impaired pap. Every so often I can't help myself. I'm grateful for the ignore feature at those times.

I love this one best. A manager gambling on games and a player taking steroids. Very similar. Hard to believe the punishment doesn't match.

You can say whatever you like, what they do does not make one bit of difference in my life. Apparently it does for you. Oh well. ;)

I did not even know you existed until we had this conversation just now.

Peace

Intractable and an absolute, bald-faced liar. Nice combination.

Can't beat a Mob Lawyer or a Gman
 

Reading this thread reminded me of why the honest Cleveland Indians never stand a chance of winning a World Series. MLB turned its nose away from enforcement policies. Ken Camineti was breaking the rules between the BAN in 1991, and the enforcement which didn't kick in until 2006. Those existing steroid ban policies were not worth the paper it was written on prior to 2006. in 2002, Camineti made "the first public admission of steroid use by any professional baseball player."

BTW, Barry Bonds is a super baseball star. Both his baseball career and his commitment to excellence speaks for itself, but his trainer is really my superhero. Gotta love his chutzpah. How much did the government spend on that aimless indictment?

Sorry Kevin, I do not follow this board like you do. Outside of this conversation I do not remember ever talking to you. I do not even really like talking baseball that much until the basketball season is completely over (March Madness included). I honestly do not know who you are and you are not someone that I turn to for positions on anything here. Sorry, but you are not. I would not even know your pattern because I would not be following it. ;)

Peace

And the seasons they go 'round and 'round
And the painted ponies go up and down
We're captive on the carousel of time
We can't return we can only look behind
From where we came
And go round and round and round
In the circle game

Okay, then you're either high, or a bald-faced liar.

Yes, I have to be lying because I honestly do not remember having a major conversation with you on this board. And if you are only a baseball umpire that comes to this board, then that is totally understandable from my point of view. I certainly do not go to other boards and talk baseball on a regular basis and I hardly come here. Look at the last time I posted on this site before this conversation. Maybe your ego cannot handle that you are not important (neither is this conversation) to me to the level you thought.

Just like this conversation, you take these things too seriously. ;)

Peace

You shamelessly defended Barry Bonds's steroid use, parroting the popular but mistaken notion that it was not against MLB rules to do so at the time that he was raping the record book. I refuted it by citing the same Commissioner's memo that I cited in this debate.

Then you discredited Babe Ruth's accomplishments, parroting the popular but mistaken notion that if he had played against the best Negro League pitchers of the '20s and early-'30s, that his totals would have been dramatically downscaled. Of course, I argued that of all the Negro League pitchers that were pitching at that time, the lion's share would have been minor league caliber, that only a handful would have been major league caliber, and that of those, perhaps a few would have been All-Star caliber. And if those few high-caliber pitchers were distributed among all the 16 teams in both leagues, that Ruth would have had a very small percentage of his at bats against those pitchers.

Of course, that was one of the debates that you dropped out of quickly, after being refuted so soundly. I guess you only remember the Circle Game debates.

We get it.

You two either have or have not or don't remember "talking" to each other.

You do or you do not care about what the other says.

You do or do not agree on the issue.

Now stop it, both of you, please.

Good grief, it's just a little baseball debate.

Why is it such a big deal?

With all due respect, not sure what I need to stop. As far as I am concerned this conversation was over when Kevin wanted to get personal.

The facts still remain. McGwire is still eligible for the Hall of Fame and nothing anyone here is going to change that (as well as Bonds, Sosa, A-Rod and anyone else that will be on the ballet when their time is up to be voted on). And I bet some of those will still get in. McGwire was always on the fence and he will probably eventually get in once all the guys that claim they saw Babe Ruth die off.

Peace

More Jello.