Appeal play?
 

This happened during our last baseball game of the season last night and we play under Fed rules.

R3 comes home on a single only fails to touch the plate (don't get me started, he should have touched the plate). There was no play at the plate or anything that would have prevented him from touching the plate (i.e., catcher wasn't in the way, etc.). The umpire called him out without the defensive team appealing.

The rule I found regarding this is 8.2.5:

If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, disires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond the succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed based and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.

I know there's been some discussion on when/if an umpire can just call the runner out so I'm not sure how that jibes with the above rule (or if there is another Fed rule that supercedes/is more appropriate). Any clarification or input would be appreciated.

For the record I'm glad he was called out as maybe now he'll be more attentive in his base running. I just want to be sure I understand the rule in this case. Thanks.

A few years ago, Fed required that, after play had stopped, umpires call runners out for missing bases. No appeal from the defense was necessary. I can't remember whether the same applied to runners who had left bases before a fly ball was caught.

So that ump was probably going by the old rule.

Note: the word is jibes, not jives, not to be confused with gibes. Coincidentally, I had to explain that distinction once to the president of NFHS, which publishes the Fed rule book.

NFHS code requires that the defense makes a proper appeal for an OUT to be called. Some states choose to modify the NFHS rules to their own liking by instituting a State Adoption. This sometimes occurs after NFHS changes a rule and a state decides not to make the change. The Appeal Play and Batters Box Rule comes to mind.

Thanks to you both for the quick answer (and correction of my grammar - believe it or not that's appreciated too).

The automatic appeal has gone the way of the dodo. Runners acquire a base by passing it, even if they don't touch it; a missed base must be appealed by the defense. The umpire ruled incorrectly.

The rule, BTW, is 8-2-5 (with hyphens). Dots are used to refer to the case book.

I think there are a few states that still do not permit any appeals.

What? Really? I've heard of disallowing protests, but not appeals! :eek:

When I played school ball in the 1960s, appeals had to be made with a live ball, as in OBR. (This was in Connecticut. I don't know what code we played under. I think we all assumed it was just "baseball rules.") I remember screwing up an appeal of a runner who had obviously missed 2B. I got the ball on the mound, but as play began ignorantly stepped off and asked for time out, so the ump granted time but of course made no call on the appeal.

I'd say it was more than "a few" years ago. Probably more like 15-20. I actually have FED rule books dating back that far, but they're packed away and not at my fingertips.

I can see a guy getting confused about a rule that was changed a year or two ago. It would kind of boggle my mind if he still thought this was the rule after more than a decade!

Maybe it was just a newer guy that hadn't yet grasped the proper appeal process.

It's not like I'm an expert on the state adoptions of all 50 states, but my recollection is that one (and only?) state that still adheres to the old rule and doesn't require an appeal is South Carolina. I guess that's close enough to Georgia that there might be some bleedover if you're doing a game along the border.

Some did not adopt the "recent" FED change to appeals -- they still have the "old" rule of the umpire declaring a runner out when the umpire sees a baserunning infraction.

One of those states is in the south east -- either one of the Carolinas or Georgia, but I forget which.

In FED the coach can do a verbal appeal. They don't have to go thru all the motions like in OBR. Maybe this was the case.

Could be, but the ball must be dead for that type of appeal. Doesn't sound like it was.

no, it doesn't have to be dead...basically any appeal in FED works. live ball, dead ball, head coach appeal...to my knowledge, they're all good...all but the accidental appeal where the umpire simply calls the runner/BR out.

I started umpiring HS in 1999. It was still the rule then.

A verbal appeal can only be made when the ball is dead. 8-2-6-c.

It's not North Carolina..

It's South Carolina.

JM

A verbal appeal by a coach can only be made when the ball is dead. A player can verbally appeal when the ball is live.

zm,

I'm out of town on business at the moment and don't have my FED books with me, but I don't believe that's correct.

I can't quote you "chapter and verse" at the moment, but I believe that Dash's assertion that the (solely) verbal appeal in FED is only sustained when the ball is dead and any runners have "completed" their baserunning.

JM

You're right. I was thinking of the part where players or the coach are allowed to verbally appeal when the ball is dead. Nevermind.

Although neither one is currently on the books, it's worth distinguishing between the automatic appeal and the accidental appeal, as they are different.

The automatic appeal (which isn't really an appeal at all) is the play where the umpire calls a runner out for a baserunning infraction (such as a missed base) when he sees it. No action is required by the defense to initiate such an appeal. This rule, defunct for years, actually brought umpiring a little closer to officiating in other sports, where a violation is flagged, whistled, etc. immediately, without requiring the defense to notice it and do something to initiate the penalty.

The accidental appeal is the play where a fielder happens to have the ball and step on a base that a runner has just missed, not intending thereby to appeal an infraction. This would happen most commonly at 1B, on a play where the ball is late, the runner is well past the base, but has missed the base. There's still a case in the case book (8.2.3) that seems to legitimize the accidental appeal, though it conflicts with the rule change (8-2-6).

As usual, terminology matters.

The accidental appeal in Fed was actually the accidental force play, though it did apply at 1B, which is of course not technically a force.

It applied only on missed bases to which a runner was forced, not to non-forced bases or bases left too soon.

If the BR beat the throw to 1B but missed the bag, he was to be called out. If a forced runner missed 2B and was tagged after he reached 3B safely, he was also to be called out on the accidental force play. (The theory, contrary to every other code, was that he had not yet touched 2B.)

It was the accidental force play that I was thinking of when I said, "a few years ago" in an earlier post. I think the accidental force play went out in 2001 or 2002.

South Carolina does not use...appeal for a missed base...or leaving a base to soon....umpire calls runner out at conclusion of play...

Also ..no batters box rule is used .. for additional strike...etc.

I didn't realize...that William Shatner...was posting here...

This...is the final...frontier.

She....packed my bags.......last night.........pre........flight... Zero hour.........nine.... AM. And I'm gonna be.....high...........as a kite...........by then.

These are… suspension points.

This is . . . an ellipsis.

Few people know the difference.

Are you . . . deliberately trying... to spoil our fun?

Climb in...the back...with...your head...in the clouds,
And...you're gone.

you are correct, my terminology was wrong. thank you

I...am the lord...of the wasteland...a modern day...man of steel...I gather darkness to...please me...I...command you...to kneel...before your...god of thunder...and rock and roll.

Apparently. You seem to have them backwards. :p

Now THAT'S funny, I don't care who you are! :D

JJ

Did Shatner really 'sing' God of Thunder? I wasn't aware of that, so I tried some Google-Fu and found this Geeks comic strip. Awesome!

Hey, that is awesome! I just thought the song lent itself well to his style of speaking, but come to find out it's on the album, WOW!;)

As someone who has been going to KISS concerts since 1975, I'm looking forward to next Friday, where I will once again break out the KISS gear and make the pilgrimage to the San Diego Sports Arena. I'm not really crazy about the opening act, Buckcherry, but I'm not going there to see them anyway.

You, too, huh?

(Should we be ashamed to admit that? :rolleyes: )

KISS was the first "real" concert I ever attented at the ripe old age of 15. After that show, all the other concerts I attended just weren't quite the same!

The last one was four years ago, the last time they swung through my area. I think that was called their "Final Farewell For About the Third Time And This Time We Really, Really Mean It And You Better Buy A Ticket Because You'll Never Have The Chance To See Us Again Tour". And, naturally, they're still touring...

In between the first one and the last one, I got to see them about half a dozen different times.

Yeah, I always fall for the "farewell tour" every time too. The Who did the same thing, and I fell for that too. But KISS has always been my favorite band since 1974.

I actually met KISS and talked to Gene Simmons for about 15 minutes in May of 1975, three weeks before seeing them live for the first time. I was at McCarren Airport in Las Vegas. I was coming home on leave from the army and my mom was picking me up at the airport to take me to her house in Bullhead City, Arizona. My mom said to me, "my gosh, look at those shoes!" I turned around to see what she was talking about and saw a pair of 8-inch green snake skin wedgie style boots. As I was looking up I said, "that's gotta be....Gene Simmons!" He then told me how the band was hardly ever recognized in public without their makeup, and that I was one of the few that had done it.

We talked while we walked to their boarding gate. Unfortunately, I had all 3 of their albums (at the time) in a locker on the other side of the airport! I could have had them autographed and they would be worth some money today.:(

I'm also a big fan of Paul Stanley's and Ace Frehley's solo careers.

Forgive my naïveté, but what is KISS gear?

Just asking a question. Not to be construed as a statement/opinion on the musical talent or lack thereof of any individual or group, nor is it intended to initiate a discussion on who's the best/worst at anything. Just curious.

Enjoy the show.

The T-Shirt, perhaps the Paul Stanley wig, probably get my face made up at the show, painting the fingernails black, that sort of thing. Others get much more elaborate, actually wearing the band's costumes, boots, etc. I would do all that but the stuff is too expensive.

And no, I'm not interested in debating the merits of the band. They are my favorite band, and by far the most entertaining and worth every penny every time, and no argument in the world could cause me to think otherwise.

Reminds me of the time I saw Gordon Lightfoot in concert with an old girlfriend. He came out in flannel shirt and jeans, and his guitar and bass players came out similarly attired. After 3 (wonderful) songs, she turned to me and asked, "When does the SHOW begin?". The relationship didn't last...

JJ

Seen them twice (years ago - once while they were in costume, once when not) Never dressed up but definitely one of my top 5 bands.... Have fun and enjoy.............
Have you ever seen the family guy episode with KISS and their army? Pretty good stuff......