I am posting in regard to two different plays that generally get lumped together in discussion. The first is at 2nd base during an attempted double play. F4 straddles the bag, recieves the throw from F6 clearly before R1 gets there, relays the throw on to first, but never actually touches the bag. I am likely to call R1 out as long as F4 makes a throw on to first base. If, however, no throw is made, contact with the bag is necessary.
The second instance is on a play at first base in which the throw clearly beats the B/R and F3 pulls his foot off the base early to avoid injury. I'm also likely to call the B/R out as long as the play clearly beat him. However, if the play was close, F3 must keep contact with the bag.
These are both examples of ad/disad., no? I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.

Here's how I call those, though others will disagree. In the case of F4, I don't require that he make a throw. If he's "in the neighborhood" such that I can't tell for sure whether he's touching the bag or not, I assume he's touching. But if I see clearly that he's not touching--maybe straddling the bag with obvious space between the bag and each foot--I don't call the out.

With F3, though many plays on TV appear to show the fielder off 1B, he's usually on at the moment the ball hits the glove. I call that one the way I do a softball runner leaving too soon--it has to be obvious. But if it <i>is</i> obvious, the runner is safe.

That's the way I've called them, and I haven't had too much trouble. Now I'm sure we'll hear some opposing views.

hhhmmm . . .
 

I guess I'm a stickler.

If I see that the fielder doesn't touch the bag . . . I call the runner safe.

If I see that the first baseman doesn't have his foot on the bag . . . I call the runner safe.

That's just me and a response backed by my "brief" experience.

Re: hhhmmm . . .
 

At the lower levels, the participants expect the game to be called by the written rules.

At the higher levels, the participants expect the game to be called by the unwritten rules.

With my limited experience
 

I have found that the "neighborhood play" at second base on the pivot is accepted by 99.99999% of players, coaches and umpires at levels where the players are old enough to shave.

Inexperienced umpires will eventually learn that the game of baseball is NOT always played as to the written rule.

Re: Re: hhhmmm . . .
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins

"At the lower levels, the participants expect the game to be called by the written rules.

At the higher levels, the participants expect the game to be called by the unwritten rules."
-------------------------------------
Bob, Do you mean the level of participating players or participating umpires? Or both? G.

Depends on what side of home they are on.
 

Tee accurately stated:

<b>I have found that the "neighborhood play" at second base on the pivot is accepted by 99.99999% of players, coaches and umpires at levels where the players are old enough to shave.

Inexperienced umpires will eventually learn that the game of baseball is NOT always played as to the written rule.</b>

I will add that in my experience some coaches will accept, nay, expect the neighborhood call when on defense, yet protest vehemently when on offense. Very similar to a knee high outside corner strike.

GB

This is an excerpt from one of Carl Childress's Books
"On The Bases". I read it 10 years ago and it still makes sense to me.

Im not sure if Im posting this properly or legally, but I felt it important enough to share with you.

I quote:

On The Bases by Carl Childress
Working the Bases: Safes and Outs

Finally, let's talk about what is probably the most famous play in baseball: The 'phantom- out at second.

Some umpires don't call the phantom out. Their "perfect game' argument goes like this:

"Probably the most abused of all the force plays is the first half of the double play around second base.

Players seem to accept as part of the game that the shortstop or second baseman is entitled to either tag in the area of the bag or touch the bag early and jump to the side of the base to receive the throw. Both of these are violations of the rules.

Clearly, that's right ... by the book. But real-life baseball isn't always called exactly by the book.

When I was growing up many years ago, I remember listening to Gordon McLendon, the "Old Scotsman." He was sitting in a Dallas studio doing the play-by-play of major league baseball: 'On the Liberty Broadcasting System, direct from Yankee Stadium by wire report...."

What we unsophisticated country boys didn't realize is that "wire report" meant Gordon was recreating the game from telegrams. I remember his discussing back then that major league umpires always called a "phantom” out at second. Most still do.

Since both sides accept the "out' as the legitimate result of the play, what do I gain by insisting on a literal interpretation of the rule? Rather, baseball tradition makes that play one of the easier ones I have to call in any game.

My advice: When the throw beats the runner a long way, don't worry about whether the fielder kicked the base after he released the ball or before he got it; don't even worry if he skipped kicking it altogether. Just hunker down and get ready for the play at first, where you're going to earn your money. In other words, the key consideration is: Could the fielder have made the play? If your answer is "Yes," you've got an out.

Naturally, if the throw is wild and it pulls the pivot man away you'll call, "Safe." And naturally, if that force play at second is not a part of a double play but the only chance the defense has for an out, or if it's the third out to end a half-inning, then once again, what I see is what they get: If the fielder doesn't have the ball when he tags the bag he doesn't get an out.

<i> Originally posted by mpeterson_1 </i>

<b> I am posting in regard to two different plays that generally get lumped together in discussion. The first is at 2nd base during an attempted double play. F4 straddles the bag, recieves the throw from F6 clearly before R1 gets there, relays the throw on to first, but never actually touches the bag. I am likely to call R1 out as long as F4 makes a throw on to first base. If, however, no throw is made, contact with the bag is necessary.

The second instance is on a play at first base in which the throw clearly beats the B/R and F3 pulls his foot off the base early to avoid injury. I'm also likely to call the B/R out as long as the play clearly beat him. However, if the play was close, F3 must keep contact with the bag.
These are both examples of ad/disad., no? I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. </b>

Your thread comes under the category of the "neighborhood play" or Calling that which is expected.

If the play is a "banger" then F4/F6 better be on the base, however, as others have mentioned if the player is out by a mile <b> THEY ARE OUT </b> unless the DEFENSE prooves to you that they are not.

This means that if the throw is a good one, and F4/F6 are where they are supposed to be - We have an Out. If the throw is bad pulls F4/F6 off bag etc. then we could have an out / safe depending upon the reactions of the fielders.

Is this <i> Cheating </i>? NO because the same philosophy holds true for BOTH teams.

This type of play separates the inexperienced from the experienced umpire. I will give you an example.

When I first started umpiring for <i> prime time </i> I looked to make certain that F4/F6 touched the bag etc. on the routine stuff. On one particular play the runner was out by a mile but I call safe saying F4 didn't touch the second base bag, however, you talk about emabarrassing moments, by the time I called the runner safe, the runner himself was halfway to the dugout meaning even He knew he was out.

That was a lesson well learned. Also, as Bob Jenkins points out, this <i> method </i> is not understood by kids who don't shave so you have to rule accordingly.

Pete Booth

Sorry again . . .
 

I think that's total crap. If you don't call the game by the rules . . . you're a hipocrite if you ever site a rule.

Unwritten rules? That's bologna regardless of how high the level of competition goes.

Maybe I am blind to reality, but I call the play as I see it and I expect others to do the same whether I'm coaching or playing.

Re: Sorry again . . .
 

<i> Originally posted by Gold_Spark </i>

<b> Maybe I am blind to reality, but I call the play as I see it and I expect others to do the same whether I'm coaching or playing. </b>

Gold_Spark,

have you ever umpired a game by yourself?

If you did, then you KNOW you do not call'm as you see'm because you can't see everything.

When your solo, you have what I call "givens" meaning ball where it's supposed to be and the tag where it's supposed to be - WE HAVE AN OUT. The opposite is also true, meaning if throw is not good and fielder tags runner up high - We Have a safe call.

IMO the game deserves consistency and in a way the BU's calls on the bases should be consistent similar to a PU calling balls / strikes.

example; Let's assume you have 5 plays in which the fielder tags runner UP high. On 3 out of the 5 you call runner out and on 2 of them you call runner safe. In almost all instances when a tag is up high, the runner will be safe - That's what everyone EXPECTS and is an easy SELL for the umpire. Also, it is consistent. Now sometimes you call runner out and sometimes you call runner safe.

Both coaches will probably be scratching their heads because they don't how to instruct their players since there is no consistency from call to call.

Also, as was mentioned all of this depends upon what leagues you umpire in. I agree with your concept for youth leagues as the kids at that age only understand one thing. However, as they get older and <i> learn </i> more about the game they will come to know the <i> neighborhood play </i> etc.

Most games are umpired using the 2 person mechanics and therefore, we need consistency in the game. No one is talking about a fielder who is off the bag by a half a foot or so, we are talking in the vacinity or as the name says <i> in the neighborhood </i>

It's been around ever since baseball was invented. Today, because the kids don't play pick-up games like we did it's only accepted at certain levels. When I played even at the youth age we knew the term why! because we played baseball everyday unlike the kids of today.

Pete Booth

Sparky sez:

<b>I think that's total crap. If you don't call the game by the rules . . . you're a hipocrite (sic) if you ever site (sic) a rule.</b>

1. Is your strike zone 17 inches wide?
2. Are the top and bottom perfect by the rule book?
3. When working one man ball do you get to second to see if the tag was made on the steal or do you judge by whether the glove got down in time?
4. What do you think is meant by running out of <i>the baseline</i> to avoid a tag?
5. On a bang bang play what do you call when the ball and touch arrive at the same time?
6. Do you eject every coach who leaves his spot to "discuss" a judgement call?
7. What do you do when a pitcher rubs the ball on his uniform?

Please, let us know if you call each of these "by the rules". If not, sign your post "bigger hypocrite."

Then, come back in three years and, provided you have three years of additional experience and not one year's additional experience three times, we'll discuss the subject again.

GB

Bottom line . . .
 

You call it how you see it.

1.) I call a strike, if I think it's a strike.
2.) As perfect as humanly possible.
3.) Use my bst judgement from the position I am located.
4.) Runner establishes his own baseline. There is three foot given on an attempt to avoid a tag. If by my judgement the runner runs more than 3 feet away from the fielder to avoid a tag . . . the runner is out. I use my best judgement.
5.) The possibility of the ball and player arriving at the EXACT, PRECISE same time is near impossible. I make the call to the best of my ability.
6.) If a coach leaves his spot to question a call . . . during our meeting I'll ask him to call Time out on the next question before he comes to me. If he disobeys my request . . . I'll then send him to the dugout for the rest of the game.
7.) Pretty much the same thing. I warn him not to repeat the action. I'll check the ball. If in my judgement he intentionally distorted the ball by the action . . . he's ejected.


Finally . . . What I MEANT with my post . . . is that if you don't call the game by the rules, TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY, then you are a hipocrite. But to deliberately "forget" a rule . . . that is still total crap.

So you think that you're an umpire
 

Gold-spark;

Recently, Carl Childress sent me an email and asked me to write an article for eumpire entitled "So you think that you're an umpire" He wanted me to do it without "pi$$ing off the entire world".

I sent an article back to Carl and told him that umpires only pi$$ off half the world with each of their calls. Since I am an umpire, I promised to pi$$ off only half of his readers with my article.

I have a feeling that you will be among the half that are pi$$ed off. Therefore, when the article gets published, you may want ot ignore it. However, from your writings, it appears that you need to read it more than most.

Peter

"Then, come back in three years and, provided you have three years of additional experience and not one year's additional experience three times, we'll discuss the subject again."

As the gentlmen have tried to tell you, at some point you will appreciate experience as much as you appreciate following the rules to the letter of the law. This holds true for all officiating. It is good that you are reading and following the rules, now go that extra step and learn intent and history of the game your officiating. I guarentee you, you will see things differently.

Many treat the rule books as contracts, or legal documents,
or cook books to play a game. They are guidelines. When the day comes that you can read in between the lines, then you will find that your just starting to become a good official.

GOOD LUCK

Promise not to bite ya
 

Gold:

I understand from where you are coming. I don't agree, but I understand.

The Internet has taught me that, like most things, there are two types of umpires.

There are umpires that call by what they call the intent, spirit and common usage of the game.

There are another set of umpires that think that if the game is not called by "the letter" of the rule the umpire is cheating.

I doubt if these groups will ever find a common ground.

David Casimer is a proponent of "not cheating". Dave feels that if an umpire calls a "neighborhood play" or "selects" to not call a balk that he has actually cheated the participants in the game.

Most of us that have many years of experience (and that is many years not one year many times) think we "understand" the game well enough and are informed enough to keep control of our games, give the players a fair and equal basis of the rules and never take one side over the other.

We like to look "down" on the "letter of the rule guys" becasue we have a false sense of "knowing what it really takes to be an umpire."

I contend that ALL umpires fit the mode of "selective" enforcement. Some just do it a little more widely than others.

We have blathered on-and-on about this difference and we will never find a common ground.

I can only say the following:

IF you want to continue to advance upwards in your local association or move into the highest quality ball you will need to understand the need to view the game from a persepctive much more closely to that of the "pragmatic" umpire rather than where you are today.

Gold, compromise is important in all types of business and umpiring is no difference.

I admire your strength to tilt against the windmill but if you want to move up you'll need to review, at times, how strongly you want to continue this committment to "calling by the rules."

Sparky answers:
<b>1.) I call a strike, if I think it's a strike.</b>
You didn't answer the question, Sparky. What you "think" isn't the rule book answer. Shame.

<b>2.) As perfect as humanly possible.</b>
What a cop out. Yes or no?

<b>3.) Use my bst judgement from the position I am located.</b>
So then you make a call without realling seeing a tag. Shame.

<b>4.) Runner establishes his own baseline. There is three foot given on an attempt to avoid a tag. If by my judgement the runner runs more than 3 feet away from the fielder to avoid a tag . . . the runner is out. I use my best judgement.</b>
That's not what the rule book says, Sprarky. How come you don't call it like the rule book?

<b>5.) The possibility of the ball and player arriving at the EXACT, PRECISE same time is near impossible. I make the call to the best of my ability. </B>
You must have super human vision, Sparky. Time gaps shorter than those discernable by the human eye happen all the time. What do you do? Hint: calling to the best of your ability is a copout not covered in the rule book.

<b>6.) If a coach leaves his spot to question a call . . . during our meeting I'll ask him to call Time out on the next question before he comes to me. If he disobeys my request . . . I'll then send him to the dugout for the rest of the game.</b>

BZZZZZZZZZT. Sorry Sparky. Ever read 9.02(a)comment?

<b>7.) Pretty much the same thing. I warn him not to repeat the action. I'll check the ball. If in my judgement he intentionally distorted the ball by the action . . . he's ejected.</b>

You have to be kidding. A pitcher receives the ball from the outfield, wipes the crud off on his shirt and you want to check the ball? Really? Every time?

Ever hear of OOO?

Sorry, Sparky. Apparently you don't call by the rules. By your own standard, you must be a hypocrite. Or maybe you're new and just don't realize that the learning process continues.

Hope you stick with it, Sparky. Work, read, listen and learn. You'll make it.

[Edited by GarthB on Aug 2nd, 2002 at 09:39 AM]

What would be the umpires story if a manager came out to question a neighborhood play?

Manager: Blue, he missed the bag by two feet.

U2: But the play was made long before your runner got there.

Manager: So you're saying that F4 doesn't actually have to touch to bag to record the out?

U2: Nope, just close enough


PROTEST!

Guys, I'm trying to understand the old school of thought, I just need to know how to respond, as an umpire, to the neighborhood play call. Logic tells me the manager could protest, and win, this call every time.

Plus, at what level do you start calling it? And how close is close enough?

Kyle

First of all, I don't know of any umpire this side of Safeco Field that would call an out if the defense missed the bag by two feet. I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone ever suggested that in this thread.

Argument by exaggeration doesn't carry much weight.

But let's continue with your situation.

Manager: Blue, he missed the bag.

Ump: I've got an out there, coach.

Manager: But didn't you see him miss the bag?

Ump: It was close coach, but I saw the play, and the runner is out.

Manager: Is this one of those "neighborhood plays?"

Ump: Coach the runner is out on the play and he'll be out on that play when you run it, too.

Manager: But...

Ump: Thats all the questions coach, we're gonna play now, you need to get off the field.


All of this will happen, of course, only if the coach is an absolute idiot or has limited experience, or if the umpire tried to implement this call in a level that neither understands it or needs it.

Brat ball, anything under 13 years old, needs to have a good touch of the bag. Those kids are still being introduced to the fundamentals and the danger of the slide at second is minimal compared to the oldsters.

Freshman ball and above, the neighborhood play is as much a safety issue as anything else.

But, unlike your exaggeration, in calling the neighborhood play experienced umpires will require that the defender be at least on the same block.

Last night during the Mariners game, the neighborhood play or phantom tag was given with F6 about a foot behind the bag and on the move. Personally, I expect the defender to be a bit closer than that, but I don't carry a tape measure. It comes from experience. It's like the old saying goes, "I know it when I see it."





[Edited by GarthB on Aug 2nd, 2002 at 12:29 PM]

Don't we all make adjustments to the literal, written rules at every level we do? Do we call the literal strike zone at every level? (Does <i>anyone</i> want us to?) Even within the same game, don't we call certain pitches depending on the situation?

Don't we all agree that a superhuman, perfect, literal umpire would quickly be run out of town? Playing under him would be like serving under a military officer who did everything exactly by the book. The system would collapse.

Perhaps it has something to do with the smoothness of the fielders' execution. If F6 drags his foot on making the relay and maybe doesn't scrape the bag, that's an out. Has anyone ever really had an argument on that play? But if F6 mistimes F4's throw and is obviously across the bag when he catches it, that's not an out.

I think of it less as "neighborhood" and more as "benefit of the doubt." I assume the fielder touched the bag unless it's obvious that he didn't. Same with a runner leaving too soon or missing a bag. It has to be obvious. Not necessarily blatant, but definite.

Others may have a different philosophy. All I can say is that mine has worked, for me, for a long time.

Well put, grey one.
 

I think that the differences we are experiencing here are primarily due to the level of ball being called, the experience of the umpire and his degree of success.

I have yet to see a successful Varsity or higher umpire with five or more years experience fail to give the out on the neighborhood play. I suppose it's done someplace, but I would have to think that at least one of three criteria I have set out: success, experience, level of ball, hasn't been met.

Oh wait, I remember a diehard from McGriff's who would never give that out: Yaworski. As my grandfather would say, the exception proves the rule.

Garth,

This is exactly why some managers have a problem with umpires. I work both sides of the fence. I've only been umpiring for two years, so I know I have a lot to learn still. But if I, as a manager, ask U2 if F4 tagged the bag, and U2 says "I have an out there coach", I can only assume that a) U2 didn't see the play, or b) U2 isn't going to answer me today. Either way I've got a lesser opinion of that umpire from now on. I know, some umpires don't care what managers think of them, but I do. I'm still trying to improve, and part of that is going up through the ranks.

It's frustrating to get that kind of an answer to a yes or no question. I know, as an umpire, and rational person, I couldn't give that answer yet. Maybe that will come with time.

Again, I ask my fellow, more experienced brothers, how close is close enough? 6 inches, 12 inches? I know, at least in the league I work in, if I just say "I got an out there coach" without actually answering if a tag was made on the bag, I'd be considered a dolt. I'm serious guys, I'm going to moving up to Juniors, PONY 13-14, and maybe some HS next year. I need to know what I should be doing on these plays.

Kyle

<b>I know, at least in the league I work in, if I just say "I got an out there coach" without actually answering if a tag was made on the bag, I'd be considered a dolt. I'm serious guys, I'm going to moving up to Juniors, PONY 13-14, and maybe some HS next year. I need to know what I should be doing on these plays.</b>

Please re-read my post. At the level you are currently working DO NOT make the call. Those kids don't need it and those coaches don't understand it. I have said all along this is level and experience related.

When you do start the Varsity games the coaches will understand it, the action will call for it and you won't get accused of not seeing the play.

Also, as I have said, the requirements are individual. I know it when I see it. You will, too. You will know when they are close enough and when they are not. Don't worry so much about this, it is not brain surgery. Nobody is going to die if you screw up while you're learning.

Personally, the proximity is related to the quality of the play and speed of the play. A quick catch and release made with a "tag" LESS than a foot from the bag (8-10 inches) will get the out, whereas a slow moving F6 six inches off may not.

Garth,

Perfect explaination, thank you.

Kyle

Your questions GarthB . . .
 

Were asked to set me up. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm a moron. The only COPOUT is the way you tried to stick my own words against me and failed.

The point of the matter is . . . I DO NOT DELIBERATELY ignore the existance of a rule. I'll admit to you right here and now that I do not know all of the rules and I don't claim to. But to the best of my ability . . . I enforce them.

Your attempt to "show me up" would be pathetic even if you WOULDN'T have taken it to the extreme.

Believe what you want. I've called for six years and besides the casual out/safe bang-bang play . . . have never had any complaints on the manner in which I umpire. I think out of EXPERIENCE . . . I'll stick with what's working for me.

If the "Umpiring Gods" of this forum don't like my input . . . I'll refrain from posting. But all that I've gotten since I've been here is flack from a bunch of wannabes who claim to be superior to be simplistic views. I thought this was an OPEN forum?

I guess that's one I DID miss.

And by the way . . .
 

Thanks for pointing out my spelling errors.

THAT really makes you look smart.

<i> Originally posted by kylejt </i>

<b> Garth,

This is exactly why some managers have a problem with umpires. I work both sides of the fence. I've only been umpiring for two years, so I know I have a lot to learn still. But if I, as a manager, ask U2 if F4 tagged the bag, and U2 says "I have an out there coach", I can only assume that a) U2 didn't see the play, or b) U2 isn't going to answer me today. Either way I've got a lesser opinion of that umpire from now on. I know, some umpires don't care what managers think of them, but I do. I'm still trying to improve, and part of that is going up through the ranks.

It's frustrating to get that kind of an answer to a yes or no question. I know, as an umpire, and rational person, I couldn't give that answer yet. Maybe that will come with time.

Again, I ask my fellow, more experienced brothers, how close is close enough? 6 inches, 12 inches? I know, at least in the league I work in, if I just say "I got an out there coach" without actually answering if a tag was made on the bag, I'd be considered a dolt. I'm serious guys, I'm going to moving up to Juniors, PONY 13-14, and maybe some HS next year. I need to know what I should be doing on these plays. </b>

Kyle,

As Garth says you need to know what level of ball you are doing. What I recommend although it could be embarrassing or painful is to call the game as you want and learn through experience until you get to a comfort level. It's very difficult to change one's style simply to change it.

In this thread I gave an example of how I learned. Experience comes through time and there's no better learning experience than the game itself.

Also, seek out a mentor <i> that's been there before </i>

All I can say is that I call a game different than when I started. Do I <i> cheat </i> the teams? - NO. Heck when I umpired LL I have called my own son out on strikes so I do not <i> cheat </i>

Also, you NEVER tell a coach "hey skip close enough" you simply say "Skip in my judgement he's out" that's it. You don't argue or give a thesis to a coach on judgement calls. You tell the coach that you saw it and it's time to play ball.

Currently at least that's what I gather from reading your post you feel uncomfortable calling the "neigborhood / phantom tag play" At the level you are umpiring it's probably best to have that philosophy but depending upon your umpiring goals, once you start moving up you will see the difference and "try it your way" and see what happens.

Once you start getting <i> knocked around a bit </i> you will learn and adapt your umpiring style if you want to continue your growth potential.

If your goal is simply to stay and the youth level (which is ok we all have different goals in life) then you do not have to change your style. It boils down to your own goals as an umpire.

Pete Booth

I'll apologize . . .
 

for my "commentary". I just came into this forum and started GIVING my opinions.

It's obvious there are a lot more "experienced" umpires posting here then me that do not really need my input.

I probably wouldn't either. I just thought it would be fun to discuss some rules.

Instead I've pretty much been ridiculed (use spell check for me GarthB) to death.

I think my "FED" background put me on the chop block early and nobody wanted to deal with me after that. Unless they had the opportunity to show me up or take a cheap shot.

That's fair. If I'm out of my league, I'll admit it.

Sorry for wasting your time.

You didn't waste anybody's time. The topic is worth discussion and worth revisiting once in a while even for experienced umps.

Sometimes posters take comments too personally and respond with personal attacks. I regret that element of these threads.

Re: I'll apologize . . .
 

<i> Originally posted by Gold_Spark </i>

<b> for my "commentary". I just came into this forum and started GIVING my opinions.

It's obvious there are a lot more "experienced" umpires posting here then me that do not really need my input.

I probably wouldn't either. I just thought it would be fun to discuss some rules.

Instead I've pretty much been ridiculed (use spell check for me GarthB) to death.

I think my "FED" background put me on the chop block early and nobody wanted to deal with me after that. Unless they had the opportunity to show me up or take a cheap shot.

That's fair. If I'm out of my league, I'll admit it.

Sorry for wasting your time. </b>

Gold_Spark,

If you want to particpate on the net, IMO you need to develop a <i> thick skin </i> In addition, IMO you need to take responsibility for starting some of this. Here's your quote from early on in this thread.

<b> think that's total crap. If you don't call the game by the rules . . . you're a hipocrite if you ever site a rule.

Unwritten rules? That's bologna regardless of how high the level of competition goes. </b>

Now when you say what you did, IMO you <i> opened up the floodgates </i>

It's one thing to say "Hey guys / gals, I subscribe to the theory that F4/F6 have to TOUCH the base and I do not adhere to the concept of the phantom tag / neighborhhod play" is one thing but when you say

"If anyone calls the neighborhood / phantom tag play, then you are hipocrite" is a little strong so when you get the type of responses you got, in a way IMO you asked for it.

If you want to state your philosophy / opinion is one thing, but when you use words such as calling one a hypocrite if they don't follow your philosophy is another.

Remember it takes <i> 2 to Tango </i>

This subject matter was worth it.

Pete Booth

Somebody call 911
 

Sparky:

Calm down, you're gonna have a stroke.

You're right, you were set up. You were set up in hopes you would see that you were being judgemental when in fact you were guilty of the same crime.

You were set up in hopes that it would help you to understand why umpires do certain things at certain levels.

You were set up to try to get you off you high moralistic horse.

You were set up in hopes that you would start thinking at a little more deeper level about the rules and umpiring.

You were set up to see if we could figure out what level you were at and what experience you had so that we could explain things in a manner that you would better understand.

If you will note, after your responses the posts started zeroing in on the topic in a more precise and, hopefully helpful manner. Kyle got it. You will too if you can lower your blood pressure a bit and open your mind a little.

Hang in there, you can figure this out, if you want to.

God forgive me, but this all brings to mind a "Peterism".

Peter is fond of saying that we should emulate the top umpires in our associations and do as they do, not as they say. The only real problem with this is that Peter fails to clarify <b>which</b> top umpires and at which games they should be emulated.

If you are calling 13U ball, and you emulate a top D-1 or even a Varsity ump and call your game like he calls his D-1 or varsity game, you're gonna have a long afternoon.

If you are calling 13U ball, emulate a top U13 ump, or the D-1/Varsity umps WHEN THEY CALL U13 BALL.

As you move up, watch the top umps and at each level take what they do and introduce into your game, at the appropriate level.

As I told Kyle, if you are not working games where these kinds of plays are understood or needed, don't call them. Nobody expects you to call the phantom tag at a PONY game.

I've called in New York, California and Washington and in every association I've worked with, the so-called "unwritten" rules, including the neighborhood play, have been observed from Freshman level on up.

The experienced umpires who call upper level ball on this site, TEE & HHH to name just two, will tell you the same thing. We are not making this up.

Relax, Sparky. You'll either get it and use it, or you won't. Either way, nothing earthshaking will happen. The ozone won't go away, the rain forest will still be destroyed and the American League will still have the designated hitter. The only consequence will be imposed down the road by those who decide your rating and your level of assignments. If they care they will let you know.


BTW: You'll know when the umpire gods show up when you see Carl post.

[Edited by GarthB on Aug 3rd, 2002 at 12:48 AM]

And speaking of Mr. Childress.

Sparky. Get some of those books he has written. Believe me, they did more for me then any one umpire could have in all my years of officiating Baseball.

Yup Spark...........you were set up ....
 

I saw it coming. The fact that you didn't even see it coming and typed the responses you did speaks volumes of the angle your approaching this from.

It sucks to be wrong in front of so many but you know what, I've learned a hell of alot by being wrong on the internet which has translated in to being right alot more often on the field.

Get to clinics now, early in your umpiring career. I envy the rookies I see when I go to clinics. They get a fresh start and don't have to 're-learn' and correct bad habits. Keep reading on the internet and keep posting. I learned more in the last three years because of the access to information on the net and the people I've met through the net than I did in my first 8 years of umpiring. (with a approx 10 year break in the middle).

Bob

lol. Fellas . . . I'm not an aspiring umpire.
 

I call Youth League Games to help out the league and because I love baseball. I have no hopes of succeeding higher up the ladder of "ball/strike" success. I wanted to post here because I thought it would be fun and that I could learn a few things. That's all.

I was set up with the questions, but I was hardly proven wrong. My answers were centered around the basis that I would call the game to the best of my knowledge and ability. My argument was against blatant ignorance of rules. It's easy to take something someone said and use it against them. Too easy. Especially to prove a point.

I'm sorry I came off as I did. I called a game tonight that made "The Official Forum" seem like heaven. lol. See my next post.

From now . . . no more advice from this wannabe umpire. I'll ask and listen. That's all. There's no reason for arguments. And I again apologize for my part in it.

Don't kid yourself
 

That's how 75% of us got started, Sparky. The bug bites. You've got the inquiring mind required to learn and a passion for "getting it right." I'll bet you're still with us years from now.

Welcome aboard.

GB