The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Baseball (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/)
-   -   Missed Base/Appeal (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/55222-missed-base-appeal.html)

Lapopez Fri Oct 30, 2009 09:52am

Missed Base/Appeal
 
In general, how much time must pass after a missed base before it becomes an appealable? I understand the mechanic at the plate but a little unsure at other bases. If a runner is trying to return to the plate, it would be obvious that he is doing so because he thinks/knows he missed it. But at other bases he could just be trying to return safely.

1. Slow do-or-die roller to F6, BR beats the throw but misses first base. Base umpire calls safe. F3 knows BR missed the base and immediately turns to BU and says, “But he missed the base.” Is that sufficient for the appeal?
2. Base hit to right. BR rounds first, but misses it. F9 throws behind him. Can F3 immediately (with the ball and touching first base) appeal or has insufficient time passed that he is still obligated to tag the runner?

mbyron Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapopez (Post 633788)
1. Slow do-or-die roller to F6, BR beats the throw but misses first base. Base umpire calls safe. F3 knows BR missed the base and immediately turns to BU and says, “But he missed the base.” Is that sufficient for the appeal?
2. Base hit to right. BR rounds first, but misses it. F9 throws behind him. Can F3 immediately (with the ball and touching first base) appeal or has insufficient time passed that he is still obligated to tag the runner?

1. Merely pointing out that the runner missed the base is not sufficient for an appeal. If he tags the base or the runner when he says it, then you've got a valid appeal and should rule on it.

2. As you've described it, this appeal seems valid to me, and I would rule on it. Ordinarily in this scenario, the defense would be making a play on the runner off base rather than appealing a missed base.

I'm not sure what time has to do with the question of whether an appeal is properly constituted. Once a runner misses a base, he's liable to be declared out on appeal.

dash_riprock Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapopez (Post 633788)
1. Slow do-or-die roller to F6, BR beats the throw but misses first base. Base umpire calls safe. F3 knows BR missed the base and immediately turns to BU and says, “But he missed the base.” Is that sufficient for the appeal?

If the runner is not attempting to return (relaxed action) and F3 is standing on the base with the ball, that's good enough.
Quote:

2. Base hit to right. BR rounds first, but misses it. F9 throws behind him. Can F3 immediately (with the ball and touching first base) appeal or has insufficient time passed that he is still obligated to tag the runner?
Same answer as 1. It has nothing to do with time. If the runner is attempting to return to the base (i.e., the action is unrelaxed), he must be tagged.

greymule Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:43am

I've seen that first situation occur in the Majors. F3, with his foot on 1B, held the ball up to the umpire and appealed the miss. No call. As the runner walked back to 1B, F3 tagged him. Out.

Lapopez Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:02am

Then, to answer my question with respect to time and based on the above answers: Whatever time such that the action has become relaxed. It's not a time issue but a relaxed action issue. Agreed?

With respect to Mbyron's answer to 2 and my summary above, if the runner is now in a run down between first and second and the first baseman realizes the runner missed first base to begin with, he couldn't appeal at that point. If he were smart and wanted to play it safe, he could chase (slowly) the runner to second, causing the action to become relaxed and then appeal at first. Agreed?

greymule Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:04pm

In OBR, I think that when the BR misses 1B and then overruns the bag, he has to be tagged whether the action becomes "relaxed" or not. At least that's the way I've seen it handled.

But I can certainly conjure up troublesome scenarios, e.g., BR misses 1B, overruns by 35 feet. Nobody appears to be appealing, and he asks the ump for time while he pulls up his socks. Grant time and you prevent the defense from appealing the miss; don't grant time and you have indicated that something's up.

In that other scenario about chasing the runner to 2B, yes the fielder could do that. However, I think an appeal could be made even during unrelaxed action, as long as the runner who committed the infraction has continued past the missed base, has left the vicinity of the base, and displays no intent to return.

Batter hits a ball off the fence, misses 1B, continues around 2B and 3B and is on his way home. The defense throws the ball to 1B and appeals the miss. That's not relaxed action, but I'd uphold that appeal.

I'm sure somebody on the board can give you a definitive answer.

buckyswider Fri Oct 30, 2009 02:18pm

I guess a scenario with larger ramifications would be a time play on the 3rd out (other than at first base, obviously). R1, two outs. Batter hits a gapper. B1 touches first, misses second. B1 almost to third. F4 receives the throw, steps on second requesting appeal before R1 touches home plate.

I'd grant the appeal and wipe out the run. Not sure I'm right, though.

Lapopez Fri Oct 30, 2009 02:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckyswider (Post 633830)
I guess a scenario with larger ramifications would be a time play on the 3rd out (other than at first base, obviously). R1, two outs. Batter hits a gapper. B1 touches first, misses second. B1 almost to third. F4 receives the throw, steps on second requesting appeal before R1 touches home plate.

I'd grant the appeal and wipe out the run. Not sure I'm right, though.

Thank you. I agree with your ruling. This illustrates the answer to my question is not as simple as relaxed v. unrelaxed action.

greymule Fri Oct 30, 2009 03:29pm

I'd think I'd uphold that appeal, too.

To give an example of an extreme contrast, in ASA softball, a missed base can be appealed immediately after the miss, whether or not the runner is in the vicinity or scrambling to get back. If you take the strict wording of the OBR book, you might think the same thing applies to baseball, but it doesn't.

I can't remember ever seeing an appeal of a missed base while the action was still "hot," though. I don't know whether Evans or J/R or MLBUM states anything definitively, but since they mention being in the vicinity, attempting to return, etc., we can properly infer that those are key criteria.

dash_riprock Fri Oct 30, 2009 04:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapopez (Post 633835)
Thank you. I agree with your ruling. This illustrates the answer to my question is not as simple as relaxed v. unrelaxed action.

It is that simple. J/R defines relaxed action: "The runner (whose action is being appealed) is inactive; he is standing on another base, or is well removed from the base at which the appeal is being made." Therefore, in your example (which I've never seen and doubt I ever will), the action is relaxed, and the appeal is allowed.

Lapopez Fri Oct 30, 2009 06:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 633848)
It is that simple. J/R defines relaxed action: "The runner (whose action is being appealed) is inactive; he is standing on another base, or is well removed from the base at which the appeal is being made." Therefore, in your example (which I've never seen and doubt I ever will), the action is relaxed, and the appeal is allowed.

If that is how "relaxed action" is defined, then it is simple. I'll use the definition rather than the term if I ever have to explain it.

Lapopez Fri Oct 30, 2009 06:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymule (Post 633808)
But I can certainly conjure up troublesome scenarios, e.g., BR misses 1B, overruns by 35 feet. Nobody appears to be appealing, and he asks the ump for time while he pulls up his socks. Grant time and you prevent the defense from appealing the miss; don't grant time and you have indicated that something's up.

Would this still be true in FED, which allows a dead ball appeal? In other words, can the defense appeal, and would it be upheld, while the ball is dead before the runner returns to first?

mbyron Sat Oct 31, 2009 08:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapopez (Post 633869)
Would this still be true in FED, which allows a dead ball appeal? In other words, can the defense appeal, and would it be upheld, while the ball is dead before the runner returns to first?

No. The only way for the ball to become dead during play would be for an infraction like INT or if the ball is thrown out of play. For an infraction by the offense, the offending runner is generally out and other runners return.

For an infraction by the defense, the runners have the opportunity to correct base running errors unless they were on or beyond their advance base when the ball became dead (8-2-5, 8-2-6c).

Lapopez Sat Oct 31, 2009 09:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 633906)
No. The only way for the ball to become dead during play would be for an infraction like INT or if the ball is thrown out of play. For an infraction by the offense, the offending runner is generally out and other runners return.

For an infraction by the defense, the runners have the opportunity to correct base running errors unless they were on or beyond their advance base when the ball became dead (8-2-5, 8-2-6c).

I'm talking about Greymule's play: "BR misses 1B, overruns by 35 feet. Nobody appears to be appealing, and he asks the ump for time while he pulls up his socks. Grant time." Now the ball is dead. It's an infraction by the offense--the runner missed 1B. Would he be out if the defense appeals during this dead ball period of time before the runner returns and touches first base? It's confusing because you answered 'No' but go on to say that for an infraction by the offense, the offending runner is generally out.

mbyron Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapopez (Post 633910)
I'm talking about Greymule's play: "BR misses 1B, overruns by 35 feet. Nobody appears to be appealing, and he asks the ump for time while he pulls up his socks. Grant time." Now the ball is dead. It's an infraction by the offense--the runner missed 1B. Would he be out if the defense appeals during this dead ball period of time before the runner returns and touches first base? It's confusing because you answered 'No' but go on to say that for an infraction by the offense, the offending runner is generally out.

Sure, in that case, with the BR himself requesting time, you could grant time and rule on the dead-ball appeal. Since the BR requested time, I would rule that he had "completed his advancement" as required by 8-2-6c1.

Lapopez Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 633922)
Sure, in that case, with the BR himself requesting time, you could grant time and rule on the dead-ball appeal. Since the BR requested time, I would rule that he had "completed his advancement" as required by 8-2-6c1.

So Greymule was correct that in both OBR and FED, by calling time, the offense gets the benefit of being able to return to the missed base without liability of being called out?

greymule Sat Oct 31, 2009 01:08pm

No. mbyron pointed out that by asking for time, the BR has announced that he has completed his advancement. So even if he returned to the bag, he could be declared out on appeal. The offense can't make a mistake and then ask for time in the hope that the umpire will grant it and thus allow them to correct their mistake with impunity.

Lapopez Sat Oct 31, 2009 01:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymule (Post 633945)
No. mbyron pointed out that by asking for time, the BR has announced that he has completed his advancement. So even if he returned to the bag, he could be declared out on appeal. The offense can't make a mistake and then ask for time in the hope that the umpire will grant it and thus allow them to correct their mistake with impunity.

Ok to summarize...

OBR: Safe
FED: Out

Correct?

mbyron Sat Oct 31, 2009 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapopez (Post 633949)
Ok to summarize...

OBR: Safe
FED: Out

Correct?

Not quite.

For OBR I would not grant time immediately, since doing so gives the offense an advantage. Since the ball is still live, the defense can still appeal. If the defense gives no indication of wishing to appeal, I will grant the request for time.

For FED the BR is out if the appeal is properly made before BR returns to the base.

Lapopez Sat Oct 31, 2009 03:32pm

Thank you. I agree with you, with the caveat that the appeal is before the runner returns to first.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:28pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1