The death of the neighborhood play...
 

...bottom of the 10th in the Yankees/Angels game.

Best part was hearing McCarver rail against the call and claim that Aybar never touched the base all night and then the production crew went back and proved McCarver wrong.

Aybar never came close to the bag, either.

I thought the call was horsesh*t myself. If the throw doesn't pull the fielder off the base, he gets the neighborhood play. I've seen a lot more blatant examples of fielders getting the call than this. I think Layne was wrong.

Touch the freaking base.

I love, love, love watching them take an undisputably correct, here's-the-replay 40 times call and watching them twist it into the wrong call.

I'd love to be the crew chief in the press conference. My only comment would be "watch the replay -- did the fielder touch the base?" And then I'd repeat it as the answer to every question.

The neighborhood play is dead and buried.

And maybe now they'll shut up about A-Rod not being a clutch hitter. He just launched one.

Absolute horsesh*t.:D

Handcuffed him, too, and he still got enough on it to put it out....Beautiful hit!

If I were Scioscia, I would now come out on every DP the Yankees turn without touching 2nd base, which is routinely done on nearly every DP when the runner is bearing down on 2nd base. It is NEVER called the way Layne did it. Not ever! He is starting a new trend, I guess. A real Maverick.

Ah, but did you hear McCarver? Every other pivot at second base, the base was touched.

This wasn't a typical neighborhood play, either. Aybar didn't even move his feet, he just kept the base straddled.

Yes, McCarver always exaggerates. But I have seen much worse called an out on that type of play. They straddle the base quite often on the neighborhood play, and have done so for years. Without that call, I'd probably still be working some of the games I've done!;) I like outs. Calling safe on that play is foreign to me, unless the throw is bad. That's different.

The best part was that McCarver, as always, was caught in a lie. He swore Aybar straddled the bag on every other pivot and someone in the truck went back and looked at the other plays and he had to correct himself on the air.

Couldn't agree more..

No such thing as clutch hitters. ;)

The neighborhood is entered by touching the base at some point in the play and not have the throw pull them off and changing the rhythm of the play. It has to be touched at some point to get the neighborhood call.

And that's from an Angel diehard.

And A-Rod was not handcuffed. Good Lord. He got a pitch on the outer half and rode it out. He was slightly late, but he wasn't handcuffed.

If the bolded part of this post was part of the "neighborhood play," it would not be called the "neighborhood play." The "neighborhood" part refers specifically to not touching the base, hence, "in the neighborhood of the base, which was precisely where Aybar was residing at the time of the horrific call by Jerry Layne. Your definition of "neighborhood play" is faulty, and not the way it has been called since, well, always.

The death of the neighborhood play...
 

is greatly exaggerated.

(Apologies to S.L. Clemens)

I've got to admit... if this play happened in my game working two man, I've got him out and I'm not thinking twice about it. I'm calling him out and setting up for the play at first where I'm making my money. ;)

It appears that Umpire Jerry Layne demands more from the fielder than some MLB umpires (most notably, Rich Guccione and his infamous high-throw, way-off-the-bag "neighborhood play" earlier in this summer).

McCarver was wrong to say that Layne had been giving the "neighborhood play" throughout the game , so "why change it now?", he asks. A review of all of three previous DP's by Aybar show him conscientiously touching the bag (or damn close). This one was just too blatant (or lazy on Aybar's part). Good call, Jerry Layne

I'm not sure how you can say Layne was wrong. You can say you've seen more blatant examples getting this call. I would say those are wrong.

I like outs too but you've got get a heck of alot closer to the base than that.

The problem is that the neighborhood play is not dead. Some umpires still give it, some don't. The problem is that we're in transition, which means that players don't know how it will be called. Ignorance is stressful.

In a HS game, I do not call the neighborhood play: the sliding rules protect the fielder. No reason for the neighborhood play.

In MLB, I think that the current lack of a settled ruling on this play is unsustainable. Coaches and players will be rightly concerned about fielder safety if the decision is not to allow the neighborhood play any longer. Umpires are rightly concerned that the neighborhood play is a rules violation and looks like a bad call on super-slo-mo replay.

Something will have to be changed, and preferably changed publicly.

The problem in this play wasn't Aybar not touching the base -- the problem was he never got closer than 6 inches to the base and didn't move his feet. Had he swiped and pivoted and not stood still, I think Layne would've given the out.

Stand there in the middle and you're going to get drilled and why should we give you the call? He's not protecting himself if he stays right in there, is he?

Steve: I find it hard to believe you so strongly advocate making an incorrect call in the interest of some greater good.

I know this would never happen, but when I see these discussions, I think its so blatent that it woulkd be protestable. Its not a judgement call.

If protested, the ump would have to blatently lie in order for the protest to be overrulled.

Play it out.......
UIC (or appropriate person): What did you see?
Blue: I saw the runner straddle the base, but I felt that he was close enough to grant the out.
UIC: What rule are you applying?
Blue:( I cant think what he could possibly say)
Offended coach: The rule says..................
UIC: Case closed - Misapplication of rule - Protest upheld
UIC:

This has been an accepted out for generations at the MLB level. He squared up on three side of the bag, if you watch the catch and release.

Personally, I hate that it's accepted, as it's trickled down to the lower levels of ball, and thrown us all under the bus for not calling it. Now someone has to ask "how close is close enough, if you're not actually going to require them to touch the bag?"

it WAS accepted IN THE PAST for generations.

It has NOT been accepted in recent years as replays proliferate.

As more and more emphasis is placed on "get it right" and requests for more instant replay increase you'll see less and less of the formerly acceptable calls of all types. And I think that's a good thing.

He could have touched the base and didn't. He did every other time that night. Just another one of the Angels' defensive mistakes this series.

I wouldn't say the neighborhood play is quite dead yet, but I have to think it's slowly on the way out.

McCarver's silence after Buck corrected him was golden. :D

Who is Rich Guccione?

My mistake. His first name is Chris and he was appointed to the MLB umpire roster this year as part of Ed Montague's crew. He made that infamous (my opinion) neighborhood play call last August where the throw from F6 was high and F4 was way off the base, YET he called an "OUT". Truly ridiculous! - the epitomy of laziness and arrogance, the kind of stuff that had the public and MLB front office at odds with MLB umpires during the 90's (in addition to the "out of condition"-ness of many of them during that period). Here's a link to that play:

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | CHN@COL: Piniella ejected in the second inning - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Oh, STFU already. He missed a call and it's a huge freaking stretch to equate a missed call with arrogance or laziness. Who really cares what the public thinks of the umpires, anyway? I'm sure the fans of the other team were thrilled to get the call.

Nobody really wants the right call, they want their team to get every call.

It's a judgment call though...misapplication/interpretation wouldn't hold up.

During pre-game show for tonight's game Cal Ripken said he does not believe in the neighborhood play, SS needs touch the bag. That is a player perspective and a SS who played quite a few games there. But it does seem true that some give it and some don't and I expect the presence of numerous replay cameras and a national audience are factors.

its easy for him to say it.... He does like lazy looking umpires... I guess if you miss the bag but are close Steve will give you the call... Me you need to touch it..But then again Cali mostly Southern Cali does things different...LOL

wait this is just an opinion of mine, Im not trying to offend anyone, nor am I calling anyone any derogatory names.

I couldn't stay awake over here on the east coast, but I just found the video. It sounded from descriptions on here that he wasn't close to the bag, but he was. I think had he called the out a 2nd base, nobody says a word, but why didn't he just touch the base?

2009 ALCS: Game 2 | ALCS Gm 2: TV, radio calls on Halos' near double play - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Oh, like he was never the beneficiary of such a call during his career.:rolleyes:

It's all because Layne and others don't want to be made to look bad on replay, which IMO has done more harm than good for umpires in recent days.

Wow, for someone who wasn't trying to offend anyone, or say anything derogatory, you sure did a good job of both. Please name a lazy looking umpire that I like.

Really? I thought the point of the neighborhood play was not requiring a touch.

He may have benefitted, but since he said he did not believe in it I expect he did not expect it. Go to the truck and review the video and tell us of a case where he argued because he did not get it when he really did not come close to touching the base.

As long as ML baseball allows a runner to maliciously steam roll the catcher the argument for the neighborhood call, to protect middle infielders is weak. They are big boys too, and unlike the catcher, they can get out of the way after making the touch.

I don't think any of them want to be proven wrong on slo-mo, that is an excellent point and excellent reason not to call the neighborhood play on national TV during an ALCS.

I will admit I have made the neighborhood call and never been questioned on it. But I believe my neighborhood is a bit closer than this one. Touch the bag, sometime during the play, drag a foot, do something to make it appear you touched the bag and you have a better chance of getting the call. Straddle it, with good distance between your feet and the bag and you get what you get.

Two man has to sort of sacrifice this play, too much to look at and still respect the play at first.

I agree with Kevin, he's gotta touch the base at some point. If he catches as he's pivoting off the base, or already shifted off the base, fine, not splitting hairs there. But its hard to split the hairs when he never ever touched the base.

Exactly, and in two man, you probably still get the out. But in 3 (if U3 is on inside), 4, or 6, its alot easier to have safe. But if you don't touch, and you don't get the call, nobody to blame but yourself.

I was a middle infielder when I played long ago, mostly F4 but played some F6
also. Both of my sons were catchers. It is a real mystery to me why some think the neighborhood call is necessary to protect middle infielders from sliding runners and catchers are still subject to crashing base runners in MLB.

Touch the base sometime during the play...:mad:

You touch the bag on the way to stepping toward your throw. You receive the ball while actually no longer in contact with the bag, and then make the throw in a continuous rhythm, giving the appearance of having been on the bag when the feed was caught. That's the neighborhood play, Mr. Umpire. Call the others whatever you want, but the neighborhood play is granted when you have left a bag you've touched at some point during the play.

Interesting. My understanding has been similar to San Diego Steve's on this. But, having an open mind, I'll look into it to see if I've been mistaken for 30 years. Anything's possible.

your best Friend Tim McCelland...LOL I know he is your favorite umpire...:)

My understanding is more like Kevin's -- you might not need to be touching the base at exactly the time you've caught the ball, but touch (or make it look like you touched) the base at some point during the pivot. And, the amount of scrutiny I can give it as an umpire depends on the number of umpires and the quality of the throw.

My understanding parallels the part of your post I bolded. And, according to some pro instructors, the debate often is to whom they make it look like they touched the base. Actual touching, is not required.

Call whatever you like.

If the infielder glides through it smoothly and well-timed and catches the ball after scraping or tapping the bag, I have an out. If he's merely near the bag with each foot or either foot, and at no time during the play touches the bag, or if he touched the bag and the rhythm of the play is disturbed by a bad throw, which becomes the reason he is taken off the bag, then I don't have an out.

That's the way I learned it from some of its pioneers way before I ever even imagined I'd someday be an umpire.

No worries. I was just interested in your interpretation, having never heard it before.

It matters not. We stopped giving the neighborhood play about five years ago.

Who were they, Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett?:)

Sorry Steve, you are dead wrong this time. Neighborhood plays have the fielder touching the base at some point but generally not when in possession of the ball. Aybar stayed on the backside of the bag to stay away from the sliding runner. He never attempted to touch the base. Jerry Layne is a very good umpire and had every right to call it the way that he did because he would be castigated now if he called it the other way. He said that he fielder didn't touch the bag and he was substantiated proof that he was correct. If the fielder would have touched the bag at some point, he could have said that the fielder touched the bag.

It doesn't matter how anyone else would have called it in their respective levels, this happened in the ALCS and that is the way it should have been called. Go ask Joe Saunders of the Angels. He will tell you.

Does that translate to "I don't have to get the call right"? :D

Rich here is the flip side.

Maybe in the not so distant future some high priced F6 / F4 is going to be lost for the season on a routine type play in which he is now "forced" to touch the base as opposed to "back in the day". R1 is going to come barreling into the bag and either F4/F6 lost for the season.

Guess what? Now the same people who were in favor of the call will now say
"What the heck is going on? The runner was out by a mile on a routine type play. why DO THE UMPIRES make F4/F6 touch the base when all is needed is to be in the "vicintiy" to avoid injury.

FWIW I now HATE replay even in Football. The replay rule was supposed to overturn OBVIOUS mistakes not replay every call a ZILLION times with different angles. Heck now-a-days you can go to the bathroom, get a drink and STILL a decision has not been rendered.

In a nutshell Replay along with "other things" has ruined the tradition of baseball.

You are correct though the NEIGHBORHOOD is dead at least in MLB and most likely division I college where games are shown on TV.

Pete Booth

McCarver is a buffoon
 

:eek:I said this before, McCarver is an IDIOT! He ALWAYS talks as though he is always right, KNOWS what pitch is about to be thrown, and knows what is going to happen before it happens. I did look up his lifetime stats, and they were better than I had expected. Lifetime .272 batting, and played 21 years. He did face a lot of big name pitchers, but he is not a Hall of Famer.
He was probably a solid catcher/player, I just don't like his guessing like he knows before something happens.
My favorite was earlier this season, he quotes" boy, this catcher is really doing a good job (catching) of keeping the pitches out of the center of the plate"????
What the H*#$ ? I thought the pitcher pitched the ball. Every one knows all ML catchers do not set up with the glove in the middle of the plate. We teach this at 10 y/o.

Watch the replays. 99% of the time they do touch the base already.

The neighborhood play has beem dead for years in MLB.

This is a reponse I received from a former MLB umpire regarding KF's interpretation of the neighborhood play


Carl,

You're both right, kind of. The so-called "neighborhood"or "in the vicinity" play evolved during the time I called ball. Originally, it wasn't called either of those names. It wasn't called anything. It was basically the calling of an out when the fielder pulled off the bag early to get the hell out of the way of the runner's spikes.

In a short time, the fielders never touched the bag at all. They just came close to the the back side as they were turning the play. Close then became a matter of interpretation for some umpires, 2 inches, 4 inches 10 inches, a foot and a half. This is when the nick names came about as in "he was in the neighborhood."

I don't think I saw a fielder actually touch second on a double play once in my last five years.

I have noticed, however, that since the merger, the practice of giving that play to the fielder has diminshed. It will take some time and some more retirements, but I think it will be gone completely in a few years.

Edited to add:

From what I've seen. I don't think it will take a few years. Just my opinion.

Great stuff!

I'd say that it's a pleasure for me to declare that we're both right. :)

And naturally, I'm old school as well. I guess it will take my retirement (again, as I have more lives than Bret Favre apparently:)) to get me to stop calling it. I make the player make the most of the play, and I thought that Aybar, by straddling the base, then pivoting to position his right leg on the backside of the base, had demonstrated enough "neighborhood." That's my opinion. I don't think I am "dead wrong" in any shape or form, just have a different, old school opinion.

For me, it's not a question of old- or new-school. In my games, it's a question of safety.

All the games I work, with the exception of one league, use NFHS sliding rules. Given those rules, there is no safety-based justification for giving the neighborhood play. So I don't give it.

In the one men's league that uses pretty straight OBR, I give the neighborhood play, provided that the fielder touches the bag at some time close to when he has the ball.

For me, the neighborhood play is not intrinsically good for baseball. That is not to say it's intrinsically bad, just that it needs some other rationale to be called.

No, you're not wrong; you're also right, like we determined. The fielder can be "near" the bag or make it "look good" and still be given the out.

... But I'm still making the fielder touch it at some point.

Hey, what you do in the privacy of your own home is your business!:p

There are exceptions of course, but I will take a good catcher over a good F6 or F4 any day, and yet we allow them to be crashed and possibly lost for the season, or a career. Safety is no reason to give the neighborhood call, they can touch and get out of the way. When was last time one was lost for the season over a routine play at 2B?

A good take out slide doesn't really take the fielder out, it makes him get nothing on the ball to first because he's trying to get out of the way via jump, step back, etc. There is never a collision the way we see at the plate. F4/F6 job on the play is to 1) catch and transfer, sometime touching the base 2) Get the hell out of the way 3) give the throw to first. On the takeout slide, you can't do 3 without doing 2 first, hence, no injuries.

Far different from the play at plate, where F2's responsibilities are 1) Catch 2) Block 3) Brace/Tag (different orgs. may teach 1 and 2 vice versa to eliminate the steamroll before the ball ever gets there, or dekeing the runner into slowing up).

FWIW, the worst replay system right now is NCAA DI football. Games are way too long w/ many unnecessary reviews.

F2 has equipment F4/F6 have no equipment and are exposed.

Also, your comparison is not a good one. We are talking about ROUTINE plays not Bang bang plays.

When a runner comes crashing into F2 for the most part the play is close or F2 is blocking his path.

You cannot compare a play at the plate where F2 is blocking the runners path to a ROUTINE play at second base.

Pete Booth

I am not replying to any post on this.

I saw the video posted of the play in question. That was not a neighborhood play. His feet were about 6 inches from the base during the whole play. Not even close to a neighborhood play.

I will give it in situations when I am not sure if he touched the base or not. Such as, F6 drags his foot behind 2B and is close to the base. How can you dispute if he touched or not? The base isn't going to move if he just clips it.

I'll give that or if one of his feet comes within just a few millimeters of the base. Again, hard to tell if he touched it or not at regular speed. But, Aybar's feet were never close to 2B and that is the right call. That is not a neighborhood play at all.

I don't believe the neighborhood play is dead by no means. I just think the umpires need to make the players work a little more than that to earn it. Be a little more deceptive than that. The nose bleed section could tell he didn't touch the base or even come close.

At least be in the neighborhood, to get the neighborhood call.

... See!

Of course I can. A routine play at second base does not require any "protection" for the fielders, they can move their feet and get out of the way. The "neighborhood" call is supposed to protect them from runners sliding at them with intent to break up double plays?

At the plate on bangers the catcher has very little chance to brace himself for the collision and the catcher's gear is little help against a 200+ lb runner at full speed crashing into him with malicious intent.

My point was the neighborhood call is supposed to "protect" middle infielders, who don't reallly need it if you compare the collisions they might indure to those at the plate, and MLB does not "protect" catchers.

Touch the bag or you don't get the call.

maybe we outta have a football style instant replay, each skipper gets two challenges a game, if he wins both, he gets one more, if he loses BOTH challenges, he gets ejected, if he gets ejected for anything else, his team loses any challenges remaining. no extra challenges allowed for extra innings. make for some more skipper strategy...:D

I am 28 years old, played baseball (SS in fact) all the way though college at a major division 1 school as well as 2 years in MiLB. I have also umpired for the past 10 years. This is in NO WAY a neighborhood play. In order to get the call, F6/F4 should at least attempt to touch the base or swipe at it with your foot.

What F6 did in the video is not even a technique taught above little league because it will get you killed. All F6 had to do was use the proper technique and either step across the base or slide behind it within 6" or so and he would have gotten the call.

That did not look like an out so it was no called an out.

Aybar did shuffle his feet in a crow hop after straddling the base initially, and his right foot ended up about 6 inches from the back of 2nd base when he released the throw to first.

Let's put it this way, Jeter would likely have gotten the call. Not a conspiracy theory either, just plain common sense.

It's common sense that the umpire makes calls depending on which fielder is taking the throw?:confused:

Yes, veterans often get calls that rookies do not. What part of that is unfamiliar to you?

no he didn't...he caught the throw and sorta "Hopped" as he threw... No one is taught to straddle a base anyway since little league. If he would have used a commonly used method such as a catch and sweep or stepping directly across base.

It must be a fluid motion that gives the illusion of touching the base...what he did just did not look like an out...call it F6 being lazy, brain fart, over-confident or whatever...

Or....he is used to getting that call, which was my premise to start with. It could just be that he's gotten that call his entire career, and was genuinely shocked when Layne didn't give him the out.

I had a partner call a beautiful neighborhood play today on a textbook 4-6-3. (Very skillful infielders and fast runners.) The shortstop's footwork was very smooth and he got his out and was clear to throw even though he was two feet past the bag (having already touched it, of course) when he took the throw. It was very slick, and that's when you see it called. Good umpire; good players; slick footwork and good timing.

Another "neighborhood" play in top of 3rd in game 5 of WS.....and they even referred to the Aybar play!

Neighborhood only in McCarver's eyes. The replay showed that Rollins brushed the bag with his left foot as he stepped back to throw.

It was actually Mr. November, not Rollins.

[QUOTE=SanDiegoSteve;631702]And naturally, I'm old school as well. I guess it will take my retirement (again, as I have more lives than Bret Favre apparently:))[QUOTE]

We'll never forget you, Brent! :D

JJ

SanDiegoSteve..."And naturally, I'm old school as well. I guess it will take my retirement (again, as I have more lives than Bret Favre apparently:))"

We'll never forget you, Brent! :D

JJ

The one last night was different from the Aybar play, but I wouldn't expect McCarver to remember that far back.

McCarver starts blathering on and on about some call, the replay shows it was fine, he has to say, "Oh, it looks like it was correct." Just another day at the office for him. :rolleyes: