Had a batter draw a line with his foot on the outside part of the plate after i called a pitch a strike. i said to the catcher set up on the outside. The batter looked back and heard this. the next 2 pitches were 2 or 3 inches off the plate. The batter swung at both. When he cam up 2 innings later in the 7th the catcher did the same thing. The pitcher through 2 pitches inside for balls. The coach comes out to talk to the pitcher. I did not let the conference last long. I got to the mond asked if everything was alright. They said yes. I looked at the pitcher and said throw the ball on the outside half and i will call it. He got a big grean on his face. I went back to work the next 3 pitches were knee high outside half if not a little off and the batter swung at all three.

Just wonder did i handle this situation in the right manner. If not what are some other ideas?

Coaching while umpiring?
 

I'm still relatively new to this, but I find it curious that you are "coaching" players while you are umpiring....I also find it extremely inappropriate, if I understand your post correctly.

Others: Would I have a protest if I were the opposing coach and discovered this is going on?

<i> Originally posted by kbaerslt </i>

<b> Had a batter draw a line with his foot on the outside part of the plate after i called a pitch a strike. i said to the catcher set up on the outside. The batter looked back and heard this. the next 2 pitches were 2 or 3 inches off the plate. The batter swung at both. When he cam up 2 innings later in the 7th the catcher did the same thing. The pitcher through 2 pitches inside for balls. The coach comes out to talk to the pitcher. I did not let the conference last long. I got to the mond asked if everything was alright. They said yes. I looked at the pitcher and said throw the ball on the outside half and i will call it. He got a big grean on his face. I went back to work the next 3 pitches were knee high outside half if not a little off and the batter swung at all three.

Just wonder did i handle this situation in the right manner. If not what are some other ideas? </b>

What you are talking about comes under the category of Sending a Message. However, that message is sent 1 and only 1 time, not numerous and it is done only at the plate and early in the game not in the late innings with game on line.

When he comes up again, you should start from scratch. You already sent the message in the previous at bat. If he doesn't get <b> the message </b> by now then it's time to toss should he draw a line again. You can't continue to jeopardize the zone on this one batter. You sent the message. Either he gets it or doesn't.

So IMO you handled this situation incorrectly. I have no problem with what you did concerning the first at bat - but that's it as far as sending messages goes.

Pete Booth

We're umpires, not commentators and not coaches. Call it like you see it and let the players play.

"Had a batter draw a line with his foot on the outside part of the plate after i called a pitch a strike."

"Coach, send up another batter. This one has been ejected".

Bob

drawing a line is an instant ejection. No question. How else are you going to let the batter show you up?

<i> Originally posted by Boone </i>

<b> drawing a line is an instant ejection. No question. How else are you going to let the batter show you up? </b>

Baseball is unique in that there is NO REAL penalty other than ejection. In football an unsportsmanlike act is penalized with a 15 yard penalty. In basketball, a Technical Foul and in Hockey a misconduct penalty.

Therefore, on occassions, Umpires do send a message. Not all umpires abide by this but some do. However, the Message is sent only one time not numerous as in the above thread.

I can understand the first at bat, but after that if the player wants to continue to draw lines <b> and didn't get the message </b> then we send him packing. Also, we need to know the age of the players involved.

Sending a message is mostly reserved for higher level ball, meaning HS Varsity level and above. It is not recommended for anything lower than that as the players probably wouldn't understand it anyway.

This is one of those threads where it falls under the category <i> to each his /her own </i> Some umpires will send a message and some will simply eject - It's up to you, however, we don't send multiple messages as in the above thread.

Pete Booth

Peter, with all do respect, I wouldn't ever want to work with a partner who lets players continually draw lines on him.

The message you are sending isn't to the offending player. HE'S DONE. The message is to the managers and remaining players on both teams that you aren't someone to be messed with.

Trust me. If you dump a 14 year old for drawing a line, (after he's done crying) HE WILL NEVER DO THIS AGAIN. You've just done a favor to every umpire this little brat has for the next 4 years. No one learns what is unacceptable until YOU tell them.

By the way, I'm 37, look 27 but have 16 years in my association. Yeah I've had my fair share of dumps. How many this year? 3 in 122 games. Why? People don't f*ck with me anymore!

If a batter draws a line, then he has effectivly argued the call. What's worse is that he just stepped over the point of no return in my game by showing me or my partner up. A batter or coach using their mouth to argue can be tolerated and the disagreement ended in a gentlemanly fashion. Draw a line on me or my partner and you just ended the conversation! I do not give one inch on this point.

Although I agree with Pete Booth that there is nothing in basball rules to back this up, I will not tolerate it. The batter is arguing balls and strikes. He can draw all the lines he wants in the nearest sandbox but he will not be doing it on my field.

<i> Originally posted by Boone </i>

<b> Peter, with all do respect, I wouldn't ever want to work with a partner who lets players continually draw lines on him. </b>

Apparently you are missing the point. After a player draws a line, I now ring him up on strikes in which he hasn't a prayer in hitting - that's called <b> SENDING A MESSAGE </b> meaning I do not tolerate such behavior, but to keep you in the game I'll send you <b> ONE message. </b> BTW this MESSAGE is sent to both teams as F2 knows what you are doing. If you don't get the message then you can have a nice day.

In addition I said, use only in select leagues meaning HS Varsity level and higher not a 14 yr. old teenager so IMO you need to re-read what I said.

Since you are not familiar with the concept of Sending a Message I'll give you a perfect example of how it works.

I was umpiring a mens game and F1 had a real good hook that day. I called strike one on B1 right on the outside corner. B1 was fooled but said and pointed with his bat, "I would need a tree trunk to hit that one"

F2 (remember this is a mens league), set out some 4-5 feet outside and F1 threw it there 2 more times for a called strike 3. At that level EVERYONE knew what I was doing and guess what Not a peep from anybody the rest of the way.

The next time this batter came up he said to me "Blue can we start over" and I said sure.

Perhaps you only umpire youth leagues which is why you answer the way you did. There are other ways an umpire can handle certain situations without using an ejection and not allowing a player to show them up - Just ask the PROS Joe West comes to mind.

Regardless of what you think there are other ways to get your point across without ejecting someone.

Pete Booth

Pete,

I've agreed with you on most occasions, however, this is one that I do not. Drawing lines=instant ejections. And no, I do not eject very often at all, but I do have limits.

Good to hear from you again.

Peter, drawing a line is an ejection. That's my opinion and nearly every high level umpire I work with. I work Sandy Koufax to Men's League, including College. Your calling strikes that aren't strikes is sending a message...just not the one you intended.

Eject the player. Now you've sent a message. calling balls as strikes is bush.

And I'm saying eject the 14 year old as well. don't just save it for the high schoolers. Teach them a lesson while they are young enough to learn it.

If it were me, if I were base ump or plate ump, I'd toss the guy, that is just unacceptable and not for the game. If you let this one guy show you up, you loose respect form other coaches, which means they will argue with you more. When I was playing I watched a pitch in my eyes, my coach asked me where the pitch was, and, regretfully, I jumped up and pointed, and said "right there". My coach and I were instantly ejected. My father, who has always taught to respect the officals, did everything short of castrating me. I hated the call, but now that I am on the other side, I say "Good call, Blue." As far as the message, if you weren't gonna eject I'd forget the outside trash, and call a strike on him for the rest of the game if it was anywhere near the strike zone. I hate arguing players.

Robert, very wise for such a youngster!

We have folk in our association who never eject for fear of "losing control" of the game. Little do they know that ejections allow you to "gain" control of the game.

but on the other side of the coin, there are players who "get it". A good catcher, for example, when a coach asks where that pitch was, and you know it was fricking down the middle but for some reason you balled it anyway, the catcher says "that was outside coach". That kid gets it. You think I'm gonna ring him up later on a borderline pitch? Not while I'm drawing breath.

FYC can be as effective as and EJ
 

I've done it on a batter who dropped the bat in "disbelieve" after called strike.

F2 lined up outside, twice, and see ya !

Told batter to consider swinging the bat next time. F1 laughed him off the field, F2 laughed him off the field. His own bench laughed him off the field. Told him he got what was coming to him.

He apologized next at bat. No further problems.

Bob

<i> Originally posted by Umpire_Jeremy </i>

<b>

I've agreed with you on most occasions, however, this is one that I do not. Drawing lines=instant ejections. And no, I do not eject very often at all, but I do have limits.

Good to hear from you again. </b>

Jeremy nice to hear from you too. Why the long absence?

In any event this thread points out that we each have our <i> own styles </i> I agree that when a player draws a line an umpire cannot allow that player to <i> show him up </i>

I don't diagree with that statement at all. My disagreement is with the manner in which an umpire deals with it. Now I agree in the 16 on down range, these players (perhaps some do) don't understand the concept of FYC so it's best to eject.

However, in the Varsity level and above it is an acceptable method. Just ask a coach if he would rather have blue send a message to his star player or toss in inning number 1.

We all have our <b> own lines that people cannot cross </b> to begin with so to me this is similar.

I am not saying to allow a player to show you up, all I am saying is that there is another method out there other than ejection. For those that eject that's your perogative, but if I want to send a message to me that is similar to tossing.

I got my POINT across and either the player gets the MESSAGE or they don't. As I mentioned to the original poster, I do not send multiple messages. This is a ONE time only deal and the MESSAGE being sent is for the benefit of BOTH teams so should a player from either team draw a line again, then it's see ya have a nice day.

Also, we need to know the player involved. If the player is a <i> hot head </i> to begin with then NO message will work so that type of player will get ejected, however, depending upon the situation and player involved, sending a Message is an alternative to tossing and that's all I was trying to point out.

Pete Booth

I kinda agree with Pete.
 

In that you don't have to eject a player in order to get a message across.

However, I don't believe you should intentionally call balls strikes. That's cheating in my mind.

If I was put into this situation, I would have immediately called time out and approached the batter. I would then explain to him that there has never been a perfectly played baseball game. And considering this, nobody should expect an umpire to CALL a perfect game. Moreso, I am the umpire and he is the player. The bottom line is . . . if he doesn't show me up, I won't show him up. Either accept my calls and play the game or face option number two: ejection.

I've done this on several different occassions and to say it worked would be an understatement. The players (13,14,15 yr olds) not only accepted how I handled the situation but they actually became fond of me as an umpire.

I dunno know fellas. I'm not as experienced as the majority of you, but this one works for me. It settles the conflict and allows the player to remain in the game.

Of course if more of these incidents would occurr from the same player or team . . . an ejection would definitely be in order.

But in my opinion . . . this approach gains some respect from the players. And if you can gain their respect, you usually have it pretty easy.

GS, you make some fine points. But I equate your little chat with the players to catching my dog digging in the garbage can. I can scold him all I want and he will think to himself, better not do that again...when old Booney is around.

They may well learn their lesson when you are umping them, but more times than not, once a different ump is behind the plate, all bets are off. "Well this guy hasn't warned me yet, lets see what I can get away with"

When a guy's been dumped the message is not only sent, its received.

This situation will be handled differently by each umpire, no matter how much we debate the pros and cons of a warning, or an instant ejection. It's a matter of personal style.

Boone: I understand your point, however, I don't care about a player/team/coach regarding umpires they have in future games. My job is to manage my game at the present, not to "train" players to behave for the next umpire they encounter.