Another Joe Morgan funny
 

Detroit/LAA game in the bottom of the 8th right now. R1 and R3. Detroit's RHP does a third to first move and doesn't throw to first. (Of course you can hear the morons in the crowd yelling "Balk!!!!")

As usual, the announcers are idiots:

Play-by-play guy: There's that play, that play that everybody gets aggravated by, but Joe, it never works until it works. (Huh? :confused:)

Morgan: Yeah, I just think its unfair because the rule book says you're not supposed to deceive the runner. Well if he's not trying to deceive the runner, who's he trying to deceive, the umpire?

Play-by-play guy: It would seem to fall under the textbook definition of a balk.

Morgan: Yeah.

EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT IT DOESN'T FIT WITHIN THE RULE BOOK DEFINITION OF A BALK AND IS PERFECTLY LEGAL, YOU IDIOTS!

I want to email ESPN and tell them to at least get people who know the rules to work their games.

Non-umpires have a hard time telling the difference between legal and illegal deception.

Yogi would be proud of this statement!

It actually DID work the other night. The A's vs the Tigers. I had not seen it work in the MLB in years and years.

Cabrera on first and Raeburn on third. Cabrera was picked off terribly, got the 1B to chase him and Raeburn stole home.

Hmm, I might argue that it DIDN'T work.

If the object is to fake the throw to third and pick the guy off first - no harm to the fielding team, then the offense scoring a run because they had enough sense to get in a run down.....maybe isn't as planned and not a success? If the play "works" you should pick the guy off and NOT have a run score.

Thoughts?

Right.

Ultimately, it did not work. Tigers scored.

It had been so long since I had seen a guy get picked off....well, THAT part worked:D

Which is exactly the spirit the announcer intended when he said it.

Intentional.

Orlando did that at least three times as an Angel that I saw. Once, they were both safe and Orlando cruised to an unmanned third base.

Along with Torii Hunter, Orlando is one of the most savvy base runners I've ever seen on a regular basis. Once he stole home during a pitch by a right-handed pitcher, and he did it so cleanly that the pitch was never even delivered. I also saw him steal second without a throw several times a year. He's one of the smartest players in the game. He'll be a manager someday, I predict.

Depending on the score and inning the defense may rather have the sure out.

So it was a balk, and he would have scored anyway?

Defensive Indifference. If he's fast enough and gets a good enough jump, catchers won't even try.

Just because the catcher doesn't throw does not automatically mean Defensive Indiference. If a runner takes a base because the defense allows him to, as in late in the game with the defensive team way ahead, then yes. But when a runner gets such a jump that making a throw would be too risky or useless, that counts as a stolen base.

Wrong both times. The pitcher on the play was Billingsley, and he took this deliberate windup, ufolded, turned, looked at the plate, and Cabrera was sliding in and he held up the pitch. Steal.

The steals without throws are key steals of second like Steve just described, in which the guy gets such a sick jump that there is no play. It's a steal, and not defensive indifference. I know the indifference.

I don't really need an introductory scoring lesson, I got that in 1967. But thanks anyway.

I agree with these two. It's indifference when they're not even trying to hold the runner on or they don't care if he advances, like in a late inning when that runner is not the tying run. It's not the runner's fault he was skilled enough to get a good jump.

Just because some umpires haven't read Rule 10 and don't keep score doesn't mean others do know about scoring (and like doing it when they go to watch pro games). ;)

You said first:
If the pitch was never delivered, how did he steal home during a pitch?

Okay.

Chad Billingsley had a very deliberate windup, in which he also dipped his head and actually looked at the ground, reminiscent of Don Sutton. He went into his windup with a runner at third at an earlier time in the game, and Orlando timed it and decided right then that if he got to third and Billingsley faced the batter to go into this windup, he was going to pick his pocket. Orlando got to third with two outs and Vladi at the plate. He took his slow-walking lead and Billingsley never looked back, so Orlando took off. Halfway to home, Orlando screamed at Vladi in Spanish that he was coming and not to swing, and Vladi just backpedaled away from the plate with his arms upraised. Orlando went into his slide, and Billingsley was about to deliver, and just held onto it and stood there like the over-matched rookie that he was. Orlando popped up and ran to the dugout having stolen home before the pitcher could deliver the damned pitch.

When he ran down the steps, Mike Scioscia said, "Thank you!" Orlando turned and smiled and said, "Thank you? Why?" Scioscia said, "I've been in this game for almost 30 years and I have never seen that before."

So I don't blame you if you haven't seen it either.

Kevin - good explanation. I can picture it very well as you described it.

Mike Musina used to have a similar hurky-jerky type motion and am surprised more players didn't steal off him.

I think base stealing is a lost art.....

Or they figured out that you have to steal a LOT for it to make a very big difference in MLB games.

Wow!

It has so much more to do with a decline in skills and nuances and artistry like gurunewar just illuminated than some game-wide strategy revelation.

Okay.

Did he or did he not pitch the ball?

OBR 2.00. A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.

Was the ball delivered? If so, then we have a pitch and your original statement was false.

If not, did the pitcher begin an actual pitching motion toward the plate? If so, then we have a balk and Orlando would have made it home either way.

If not, did the pitcher just stand there in a set/windup position while watching the runner steal? If so, then your original statement was false.

Either way, it's impossible to "[steal] home during a pitch by a right-handed pitcher, and he did it so cleanly that the pitch was never even delivered." Either the pitch was delivered, it was a balk, or the pitcher stood there doing nothing.

Oh, come on now. Let's get literal and technical again. What is the deal with this lately? The runner stole home as Billingsly went through his incredibly deliberate motion. Whether it was a balk or an SB in the scorebook is really irrelevant. Can't people just enjoy a good baseball story without picking it apart and nit-picking? Kevin was at the game, for cryin' out loud.

All right, you have made a very eloquent case and I must say that both the official scorer and I are still not wrong.

Look at the official box score, the guy gave Cabrera a steal of home and didn't nick Billingsley with a balk:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...untitled-9.jpg

Can I ask a question?

What difference does it make if a guy fails to deliver a pitch after a steal of the last available base by the only baserunner on base at the time?

The runner was on third base at the time of the pitch. Even if the runner actually crosses the plate before the pitcher releases the ball he still has not scored. If the pitch was batted foul the runner would be returned to third base. If it was strike 3 for out 3 then the run would not score. As you can see the runner just passing the plate does not mean he has scored. So if the pitcher balks after the runner has crossed the plate the umpire should still call time and enforce the balk even though it really doesn't change anything on the field.

And what the scorer scored it doesn't matter. The scorer isn't allowed to "nick" balks. The scorer writes down when the umpire calls a balk. If you read the definition of a stolen base you will see that this play would be ruled a SB had no balk been called. A similar play would be R1 who starts running towards second while the pitcher just stands there. The pitcher drops the ball just before R1 gets to second base. On the field it doesn't matter if the balk is called or not, R1 is going to be on second base. But it does matter for the statistics as R1 would not be credited with a stolen base because he advanced on a balk.

You mean to tell me that you're going to pick on my choice of baseball slang! You're kidding! What difference could it make to use the word nicked?

And you're kidding about the play too, right? The umpire should still call time and enforce the balk? Yeah? The guy stole home and nothing else happened. How can a balk be called, scored or whatever you do or say? We're talking about this one play with one runner on third who stole home before anything could happen or be called. It's about this one play and not a bunch of convoluted scenarios.

What is all of this other stuff regarding?

I didn't realize nick was baseball slang. It is not listed in this baseball slang dictionary Baseball Slang Dictionary From I-O: More Baseball Slang Terms From 'In the Hole' to 'Outpitch' | Suite101.com

Just because R3 touches the plate before the pitch is released does not mean he has stolen the base. If the pitch is batted foul it is not a stolen base. If the pitch is strike 3 with 2 outs then it is not a stolen base.

A balk is somewhat different as you could have a balk and a stolen base on the same play. But yes, the umpire should call time and enforce the balk. R3 is sliding in as F1 stops his motion. The guy did not steal third base before anything else happened as you claimed. He was on third base at the time of the pitch. You seed to be thinking that noting happened before he stole the base. But that is not what happened; the pitcher started his motion.

It's in my baseball lexicon, and others', and you are really reaching. Don't pull a muscle.

I never said he stole third base ... never. I said he stole home, which he did. There was no balk, there was no pitch, there was no other runner on, there weren't two strikes on the batter, the runner started at third, and he stole home before anything else happened.

Why, according to Official Baseball Rules, would an umpire call a balk on this play?

Technically speaking it should have been a balk, no SB. And the official box score be damned :)

From a fan's perspective, a great play by the base runner. Something to get excited about, and not worth nitpicking over like SDS said.

8.05a. I don't really care, but you asked. He's still a runner until he has scored, and he hasn't scored until the play is completed, as mentioned above. So he has violated 8.05a.

As soon as he fails to pitch, "TIME". Score the runner. Scored on the balk, officially speaking.

Okay, Luke...what is the correct slang term for the official scorer charging a pitcher with an infraction? I couldn't find a listing in the Baseball Slang Dictionary. Aren't we allowed to use our own slang terms for anything we choose, including baseball? I'll bet you any amount of money that I know baseball slang terms that aren't listed in this dictionary.

Try to follow along: Kevin wasn't the official scorer that day. The official scorer did not charge a balk, and he did credit Cabrera with a stolen base. Kevin was at the game, but not the official scorer. The umpires did not call a balk on the play, whether correctly or incorrectly, otherwise the official scorer would have entered it that way in the scorebook, wouldn't he? So, why in the hell is everyone holding Kevin accountable for the decisions of both the umpires and the official scorer, when he is merely telling you what happened on the play, which resulted in Billingsley not completing his delivery after seeing Cabrera slide in safely?

I just broke my chair.

Because he has said, multiple times, that he agrees with the call on the field that it should not be a balk.

Even though it was a balk it would probably be scored as a stolen base also. Just because there is a balk does not mean that a runner cannot steal a base.

I agree also. The pitcher did not stop his motion until the runner had touched home plate. No runners on base at that time, so nobody on base to award a base on a balk, which is the purpose of the balk rule, to reward the offense for a pitcher illegally deceiving a runner. And regardless of whether Kevin agreed with the call or not, it was the call that was made. Don't believe it? Look in the scorebook.


This is also true, but it wasn't a balk because it wasn't called. "It ain't nothin' till I call it." - Bill Klem.

I never accused the Official Scorer of screwing up. I simply stated that if the pitcher began his pitching motion and then stopped, it's a balk. I couldn't care less what the umpires called or didn't call, and I doubt an Official Scorer could go against what's called on the field ("Hmm. That was technically a balk, but the umpires didn't call it. I'll write it in as one anyway.").

I'm done talking about it, simply because the topic's gone far away from my original argument.

That's because the official scorer can't do that. OBR 10.01b (1). "The official scorer shall not make any decision that conflicts with an umpire's decision." If the umpire decided, right or wrong, it was not a balk, the official scorer can't decide to charge a balk anyway.