How to "Call" a ball not caught
 

I had this problem last night:

One out, R1 and R2. Rec ball, but the guys kind of take it seriously.

Batter hits a line drive to the shortstop. The ball hits the ground briefly (for a millisecond), and then goes into the SS's glove. No question in my mind, but it was a question in the mind of many of the fielders and runners.

I didn't call anything, didn't say the batter is out, didn't say "hey guys, run", or anything like that. Just kind of looked at the SS, and waited for things to happen.

They did. After a couple of moments, the SS figured out what was going on, and tagged R2, who had come off of the base, but was confused as to whether to run or not. SS then took two steps to second base, stepped on it, and I called R1 out. He had not run (he was confused, too).

I felt sorry for all of the confusion, and it would have been nice to make some sort of call that made everything clear right away, but I don't know what I should have done? Point to the ground? Call "fair ball" (OK, that was a joke, I'm not really asking that), or something else?

Well,
 

I guess I am confused:

Why didn't you give a safe sign and voice, "No Catch."

Maybe others here will correct me.

hmmmm . . . good idea. Rats I didn't think of it on the field.

Agreed.

Yes, I agree. Signal "safe," and verbalize "no catch."

If F6 tried to, and is, selling that he caught the ball on the fly, it can be appropriate to point to the ground to further sell your call. But use this sparingly, I had a partner do this on every call, and when he had a close one, he never "another level" to take it to.

You didn't........ Groan!
Never mind!

Typically I don't even say catch. I give the safe sign and say "No!...No!" Although occasionally I do say "No Catch"

-Josh

Go with Tim's suggestion and say "No Catch" it removes any doubt. Similar to potential interference/obstruction calls on a runner/fielder. It you don't have anything, go ahead and signal safe and say "That's nothing" so everyone knows. It saves you from having the players stop or delay their next action wondering if you were going to call something, and then the coaches go nuts because your silence contributed to the problem.

Better "safe" than sorry.

I thought the safe signal combined with the call of "no catch" was pretty basic Umpiring 101 for any close catch/no catch situation.

:confused:

Are you saying to give the "safe" signal when you DON'T have obstruction/interference?

I've never heard of this.

It tells the teams that you saw it and it's nothing.

My, My! It seems that what some of us take for granted as the "basic teachings" of umpiring seem to have eluded many of the posters here. I am amazed because these signals (catch/no catch, action seen but no interference or obstruction) are taught in our clinics and must be mastered by our students. I know because I am the one that teaches these!

Same here. I quit using the word 'catch' a few years ago because it sometimes caused confusion. I do not think I have anyone confused by a big safe sign and "NO!"

Why do you have to explain how long it hit the ground are you trying to convince us that maybe it just could of not, hit the ground. Is there a chance that everyone except you saw it differently. Not trying to be a wise guy here, I have just found that some people tend to explain things with a little more detail, when they are trying to convince others of what they saw.

Besides that, I agree with the crowd here, verbalize "no catch" and take the worry out of being close.

That's my take. If I don't have to say catch, then I don't. "No!..No!" gets the idea across.

-Josh

I will never give the safe signal to signal I don't have obstruction or interference. Teach what you want and do what you want, but I've never heard that from anyone in my area. If I don't call it, it's pretty damn obvious that I don't think it's either of the two, so why would it be necessary to give a "safe" signal?

Is that taught at pro school?

zm1283,

You might want to rethink that position.

Yes.

It's not something you want to do all the time, but, on occasion, it's the best thing to do.

JM

To prevent exactly what happened in the video with Francouer getting up and just standing there thinking the BR was out.

Not me. I believe I would have.

I'm not talking about a "no catch" signal to show a ball wasn't caught. Everyone does that. We're talking about giving the "no catch" (safe) signal when you AREN'T going to call obstruction or interference.

I was not trained to give a safe signal to indicate no obstruction or interference, so I don't, I just call it when I see it and give no sign when I am not going to call. So I am interested in other's training/point of view.

I was trained to signal Safe, No Catch, on a skipper.. so I do.

Unless you have marbles in your mouth there shouldn't be any confusion.

They should be able to read a safe signal and the words "no catch" if done properly.

The mechanic is taught for use only when it might appear to some as obstruction or interference, not for use on ordinary plays where there is not the slightest chance of obstruction or interference. If a play is one that looks a bit odd, and could lead to either team squawking about a no call, the correct procedure is to signal "safe" and say "that's nothing."

I got into a bit of rhubarb this year too saying "no CATCH" I no longer use the word "catch" anymore...runner simply hear "Catch" and we get into trouble...it didn't affect the game, but my words did make a difference in that particular play. Now I either say nothing and signal or as somebody else stated..."No, No"

I did not say that there SHOULD be confusion. I said that sometimes there IS confusion. I speak extremely clearly and loudly on the field yet sometimes people have only heard the word catch. I think there is no reason to use two words when one gets the point across just as clearly (and possibly more clearly)

I know you were attempting to insult me but, I won't bother with that. You still think that Aerosmith is cool and that is sad.

Aerosmith: Very cool

Pretending you are a member of Aerosmith: Not cool

Very wrong on the latter.
Very right on the former.

I mean...c'mon....This is not cool, this is pathetic.
http://www.celebrityroyale.com/wp-co...teventyler.jpg

Not one of his best photos, granted. But the music is timeless, Aerosmith still rocks hard, and they are one of my Top 10 all-time favorite bands, so I still consider them, as a group, to be very cool.

It shows that you saw the play and made a ruling on it. If you don't signal anything, then the participants (might) think you aren't watching -- and that leads to a whole different discussion.

Be a leader in your area and start doing this.

ZM, just because you have never heard of it does not mean that it should not be done.

Of course you should make this signal if there is a situation like those discussed.

~sigh~
 

And there lies the problem. People here are giving you a valuable tool that is taught and used very widely. You take the path that you "know-it-all" and thats fine . . . I place you squarely in the cc6 camp.

I was taught that you use the terminology of "No catch" and "That's a catch" with the appropriate signals. I am not concerned about whether or not a runner misunderstands me, not my problem.

Here are some examples of the proper use of "that's nothing."

1) R1, R2. Ground ball to SS. R2 runs in front of SS briefly blocking view of SS on his way to 3rd. SS bobbles ball. Or the ball takes an irregular hop while bounding close to an advancing runner. Mechanic: Safe sign, "That's nothing"

2) Batter bunts ball in front of the plate. BR and F2 crash into each other while doing their jobs. PU judges no interference or obstruction. Mechanic: Safe sign, "That's nothing."

3) Batter swings at a outside pitch and leans part way over the plate. F2 catches pitch and tries to retire R1 stealing. PU judges no interfernce but it may look, from the dugouts, that interference occured. Mechanic: Safe sign, "That's nothing."

There are others, but you may get the idea. Giving these mechanics will not stop a coach from coming out, but you are telling everyone that you saw the play and have nothing.

I don't disagree...but then I think it has to be an association mechanic so all of the officials are doing it. Otherwise, you get into trouble...like I did...while it's the right thing to do, if nobody else is doing it...we just look like Rambo out there.

It's arms out like safe or no catch, but it's used to indicate I-have-nothing when it's used on a possible obstruction/interference.

Standard here, too.

I don't say "That's a catch" or "No catch," I say "That's a CATCH"

or "NO catch."

I was originally taught to say "That's a catch," or "It's down."

Or you look like the most professionally trained and studious umpire in the association.

Sometimes it's tough being on the island though...while I've been umpiring for 12 years...I'm one of the younger ones in our group...I've been earning some good spots in state tournaments etc...so people must be noticing...but it's hard to drive change when veterans are resistant. I've just tried to start with me and give advice to the new guys if they're willing to accept feedback. Offer thoughts when asked, otherwise I keep to myself and do my thing while always trying to learn and improve from watching others who are better than me.

So you are the most professionally trained and studious umpire in your association. And possibly possessing the best balance of pride and humility as well.

When did I say it should not be done? I just said that I don't do it. To each his own, just like wearing a cup on the bases.

I love how people on this board are so damn sensitive. (I'm not talking about you washburn) They think if you give an opinion on something, then by-god you are telling them what to do too. Lighten up.

Again, I never said that I know it all. I simply said that I don't do it. You can place me wherever you want, but I find it funny that you judge people's umpiring proficiency based on a message board. I would be willing to bet that there are "respected" members of this board who are also sh*tty umpires as well.

I know what mechanic everyone is talking about. I was telling that person that I use it for "no catch" or "safe".

Mechanics 101 ???
 

:confused:It seems there are many mechanics that umps use for different circumstances. Are there not standards for mechanics? I thought there were and I thought I was applying them but sometimes I get confused when I read differing opinions on this forum.
1. Interference - Both hands up and vocal - Dead Ball
2. Obstruction - delayed dead ball - Left arm extended horizontally fist closed.
3. Caught ball - Out Signal - Vocal OUT (confused now, do we vocal CATCH)?
4. Dropped ball - No Signal - No vocal (Confused now - do we vocal NO CATCH? and Signal Safe).

I am assuming we must use some judgement on close calls for Catch No Catch...but I also believe that different mechanics cause confusion with players and coaches...Do we use signals as we feel comfortable with?

I also am assuming that different assoications may have some preferred mechanics that they insist on. I thought this umpiring stuff was easy?:D

This is how I do it:

1. Interference: signal Time + "Time. That's Interference!"
2. Obstruction - FED: DDB signal (left arm extended) + "That's Obstruction."
OBR Type A: signal Time + "Time. That's Obstruction. You, 2nd base!"
OBR Type B: Point at the obstruction + "That's Obstruction."
3. Caught ball - Very close: Out signal + "He's Out!"
Casual, can of corn (to partner): "That's a catch, Joe."
4. Dropped fly ball or close no catch: Safe signal + "No catch, no catch!"

Ironically, I consider Tim_C to be the only person on here who knows umpiring inside-out. There are a lot of people posing as experts who don't know umpiring very well.

I haven't read anybody self-proclaiming to be an expert...claiming to have experience...certainly.

Name one.

1) What if it's not an immediate dead ball? (that's a rhetorical question)

2) What if it is an immediate dead ball? (ditto) And, the left hand out is for FED only.

3) Nothing if it's routine (other than maybe letting your partner know). If it's below the knees, or over the shoulder, for example, then give the signal and the call

4) Nothing if it's obvious. Signal and call if it's not.

So you will never adopt an appropriate, legitimate and helpful signal that is used at all levels and taught at proschool and PBUC;

Cool.

If that's your criteria, you need to move.


It lets everyone know you saw what ever happened and do not conisder it obstruction/interference, rather than leaving it to everyone's guess if you were paying attention. Preventive umpiring.

Yes, but apparently that doesn't matter since pro school isn't in your area.

I don't have an accounting school in my area...does that mean I can do my accounting however I please? You can, but you won't be considered a very good accountant. Apply the same logic to umpiring. Pro Schools, PBUC, professional interps are what we use as a standard for training...much of what they teach certainly applies to whatever level of baseball we're working.

Hahahahaha,
 

Jenkins: SDS: JPaco54: I have not seen anyone use the "Delayed Dead Ball Signal" since 1982 (it was ME).

Interesting stuff here.

Just don't use the "open fist"

:D:D

I had a professor who loved redundancies like "closed fist."

You didn't work any baseball in San Diego, or you would have seen it plenty o' times.

What a terrible attitude. I have heard this so many times throughout the years from some of my partners and it really bothers me. A lot of things become your problem(and your partner's problem, as well) A much better philosophy is to be as clear and concise as possible.

I am not hear to say that a safe signal and NO (without using the word catch) is the only way to call it. I simply said that it might alleviate confusion. That is a good thing for an umpire to do.

Why point fair? If you did not call it foul, it is obviously fair. If the players, managers or coaches are confused, it is not your problem.

Why verbalize a swing(or no swing) on an attempted check swing? A strike is a strike. If the players, managers or coaches are confused, it is not your problem.

We do not use the FED extended arm either. We use the MLB method of pointing with the left hand and verbalizing.

Well,
 

And you have every right to have your opinion.

I think it is much more complete and accurate to say "No Catch!" Trust me, no one has ever misunderstood my "No Catch" mechanic.

I umpire as well as I can and EXPECT players and coaches to also understand the game and what is going on.

As an umpire we can only do so much.

I like that idea. Maybe I'll ask if it's alright if I do it that way.

You may be completely right about how you make that call. I have no problem with that.

My issue was with the attitude of: They are confused? Who cares.

If you just do it, my guess is that no one will notice. Or, compromise -- call the obstruction, put out the left fist for a couple of seconds, then drop it. I think it looks stupid to be runing around with your hand out.

[QUOTE]Different scenario

Instead of the ball being hit to F6 the ball was a sinking liner hit to F8 who dives to make the catch.

What should you do?

Answer:

the same as you would in your scenario - indicate a catch / no catch ONCE you process the infomation. In your case you said no doubt in my mind that it was a no catch. At that point you should have said No catch for EVERYONE to hear.

Pete Booth

TEE I agree however, IMO the more interesting question is this.

Let's "go with the OP" R1/R2 less then 2 outs and the ball hit to F6 as in the OP.

You are the PU

Your partner as in this OP says NOTHING. You are:

1. CERTAIN the ball was one hopped. - Do you "chime in" and say No catch? or remain silent?

2. You are UNCERTAIN if the ball was one hopped or not BUT your PARTNER says nothing. Do you say "No catch" figuring if it was a catch your partner would have said so.

In Summary: What should the PU do in this OP if his partner is NOT signalling or saying ANYTHING.

Pete Booth

ITA!!!! I only hold it up for a second or two like any common signal (the same length of time I point in an OBR game). I can't see myself running around signaling. That would look, well you know......horse poop. You're right though, who is going to notice whether I point or use the extended fist?

And that is what we have taught in Portland for the last 15 years.

Pete, I have always taken the position that my partner has seen WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

With me being 70 feet away what makes my view "correct" -- perhaps, even if I am certain, I am the one that is WRONG.

I am from the "old school" that believes umpires call only what they see . . . I also recognize that "fixin' things" afterwards always causes a sh!thouse -- but that is part of umpiring.

What is important is not what happens when you error -- what matters is what you do AFTER you made that error.

It's actually err.

"To err is human, to forgive is totally out of the question.":)

If it becomes apparent my partner is not going to make a call (a couple of seconds), I will come up with the call, but I can appreciate an argument for keeping my mouth shut on #2.

When I work games, I give the appropriate signals, verbal and non-verbal. These appropriate signals are as clear and concise as they can be. If on a check swing D3K and I say "Yes he went, no catch" and the batter stands there confused, not my problem. If I call "Infield fly" and the runners take off, not my problem. If I call "That's obstruction" and the runner is still out due to his poor judgement running the bases, not my problem. My job is to officiate the game. In my opinion, simply saying "No" on a short hop can cause more confusion. "No" what? No catch, no it didn't hit the ground? There is a reason that "No catch" and "That's a catch" are taught by those that not only know more than me, but teach the game to professional umpires. If all umpires would adopt the correct and to date mechanics, you and your partners might not find yourselves in problem situations and, therefore, not bothered at all.

Pete,

Interestingly, I had this happen this past Sunday during a HS fall ball game.

Only differences were the ball was hit to F4 and the play started with an R2 & R3.

I honestly couldn't tell whether the F4 "trapped" or "caught" the ball.

My partner had a good look at the play and signalled -NOTHING. I was a bit taken aback. I wondered if he thought this was my call.

As I was debating with myself whether to "poach" the call, the F4 threw to F6 at 2B (both runners had taken off on contact) and my partner then ruled "SAFE!", leading me to conclude he had judged "No Catch".

The F6 then threw home where the catcher tagged out the R3 attempting to score. Action relaxed with the BR at 1B and the R2 on 3B.

Oddly, neither coach came out to discuss the play with either me or my partner.

A half inning later, I gave my partner the "let's talk" signal. I verified that he thought it was his call to make (he thought so too) and suggested that it might be better to come up with a decisive "No Catch" mechanic should a similar play occur in the future. He agreed that would be a good idea.

So, what I did when this happened was - NOTHING. A very uncomfortable couple of seconds from my perspective, and I can't believe we didn't have a bit of a "discussion" about it with a coach.

JM

What should we do, then? Hug them?

I don't care about their mental state, or whether they know what just happened or not. I care about them being safe or out.

Umpire responsibilities concerning infield catch/no catch has been an area I have been trying to get others to clearly define during pre game in our area. This is one area that seems to get forgotten or put aside when doing pre game in our area. Most guys know rotations, signals, outfield coverage, etc pretty well and do a rather quick pre game. I'm hoping that this will change, for the better, this next year. It's my own "point of emphasis" if you will.

That being said, if there is a call that is not my responsibility and my partner does not make it, I will say/do nothing until approached by my partner. If a cluster arises out of such a circumtance, we now have a learning experience that will reinforce the importance of a thorough pre game and knowing one's responsibilities.

From my experience, doing something wrong on the field, is the best way to cement it in your mind. Coaching and instruction gives us the tools to work with, but we must learn how to use those tools in game situations.

Agree, they rock hard, but they are not currently on my ITouch so not in my top 10.

Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Eagles, Bruce Springsteen, Lynnard Skynard, AC/DC, Steely Dan, Joe Cocker, Pink Floyd, Metallica, Allman Brothers, Black Sabbath, Doobie Brothers, Crosby Stills Nash and Young, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Southside Johnny and Asbury Jukes are on the ITouch.

Only 3 of those are in my top 10, but nearly all would make my top 50 except Metallica, Lewis, and the Asbury Jukes.

In semi-order:

KISS, Blue Öyster Cult, Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Rush, Aerosmith, The Doors, The Who, ZZ Top.

Harder than it looks to pick a Top Ten.:cool:

Unbelieveable nonsense
 

I never make a no-call. Not ever. The runner is not safe until he touches the base, he is not safe because the fielder caught the ball on the bounce, no matter how short that bounce was. If the fielder catches the ball before it strikes the ground, the batsman is out and the appropriate signal is given. If I don't say he's out, then the ball is in play unless and until the runner touches first base, at which point the runner is safe or out and the appropriate signal is given.

it is not the role of the umpire to provide direction to the fielders. We call them out when they are out. We call them safe when they are safe.

We do not issue advisory opinions.

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

The "no-catch" signal is not ruling a runner safe. The "I've got nothing" after contact bewteen a runner and fielder is not ruling a runner safe.

I don't know your background, training or experience, but since these are taught at proschools and used at all levels of ball including professional, I'd guess you are expressing an uninformed personal opinion.

Are there any other universally accepted and universally taught mechanics that you choose to unilaterally ignore?

In a two man system, as a BU, do you like to go out on routine fly balls with the bases loaded?

Why not decide that you can call the lines from the B position?

We are not calling them safe. Maybe you are not aware it is a common and accepted practice to use the safe signal to mean "not out" in certain cases. If you use it right it is very helpful.

I too am an amused official who just read a lot of unbelievable nonsense.

amusedofficial,

Then you are not as good an umpire as you could be.

And you have a fundamental misconception regarding the umpire's role in a game.

JM

I disagree. From the attitude he displayed, I will bet he is as good as he is going to get.

As soon as you know whether it is a catch or no catch, make a signal. Whether a ball is caught or not affects the status of the baserunners.

How the hell would you know? Seriously.

Nice piece of umpiring JM, don't know if I could have bit my tongue. I guess depends on the impression a new partner would give. Did 'pard seem to have a clue otherwise. If he had sneakers, combo pants, and a strap hat would you have made a call? :p

Absolutely the correct mechanic, in my opinion. The runners (and fielders) need to know what happened - especially when it's not obvious.

While we're at it, there are 7 (that I can think of) uses of the "safe sign."

1. The most obvious, the runner is safe because he beat the tag or beat the throw. This is the one with which we are most familiar. It's the signal we make when the BR beats the throws to 1st or when the stealing R1 beats the catcher's throw at 2nd.

2. The batter did not swing. This is the signal the BU gives when asked, "Did he go?"

3. No catch! Used whenever there is any question as to whether the ball was caught while still in flight. This should be used on all shoestring catches, or, when the fielder seemingly catches the ball but it jars loose because of a collision with another fielder or wall/railing.

4. No tag on a swipe. This can occur anywhere! Let's say there is a grounder hit to F4 with R1. After fielding the ball, F4 makes a lunge/swipe toward the passing runner. Did he get him or not? You have to let them know at that very moment because subsequent play depends on the result. You can't just remain silent and signal nothing. Well, you can, but it would be poor technique.

5. A batted ball did not hit the runner. Oftentimes you'll see a runner leap over a sharply hit grounder, or, maybe the ball passed in very close proximity to the runner. There may be some question as to whether the ball hit him or not. If it did not hit him, a very wise signal would be to quickly give the safe signal. That way everybody will know that you were completely aware of what almost happened but it didn't happen. This signal will often preempt some disputes.

6. That's not obstruction/interference. Or, that's nothing. Sometimes a runner and fielder will make contact and it is neither obstruction nor interference. If you determine that it is nothing it would be wise to quickly give the safe signal to indicate, "Yeah, I saw it, too. It's nothing. Keep playing."

7. There is no fan interference. This is very common in MLB parks where fans reach over the railing and try to grab a live ball. A flurry of hands reach out for that ball ringing around in the corner. Did somebody touch it? If not, the umpire oftentimes gives the safe signal to indicate that the ball was not touched and is still live. This can happen during a high school game where it is not uncommon for a bunch of students/fans to congregate along the outfield fence. A ball is hit into the gap and bounces off the wall amidst a bunch of outstretched hands. If nobody touched it - give the safe signal to indicate that 1) you saw it 2) nobody touched and 3) the ball is still live.

Tim is an extremely knowledgeable umpire, but I'll bet if you ask him he'll tell you himself that he's still learning every time he steps onto a field. He's also able to learn from other members of this forum.

You do know that there are collegiate Div 1 umpires as well as former professional umpires posting here, right?


Tim.

I saw U2 use the "safe" signal in another way the other night on TV. R2 was going back to tag up on a caught fly ball. As the throw was coming back to 2B, it hit R2. R2 slid into 2B to retouch and U2 gave the "safe" signal which I assume was to show that he saw the retouch. There were no defensive players around, so there was no tag play or anything.

More likely he was ruling on the possibility of interference with the thrown ball.

I'm a D1 umpire with 5 Regionals and 10 conference tournaments under my belt, and I'll say without a moment's hesitation I don't know umpiring "inside-out". There are a lot of coaches and player who would agree with me. :D

JJ

This goes back to the old Kick Ball mechanics. In Kick Ball, you are out if a fielder throws the ball and it hits a runner if he is not in contact with a base.

So you're saying that the umpire was signaling safe so nobody would think that hitting the runner with the ball results in an out? Oooooooooooooo-k.;)

Sorry, I forgot my smiley thing at the end.....Kick Ball mechanics are much more complicated......:)