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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 30, 2009, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
amusedofficial,

Then you are not as good an umpire as you could be.

JM
I disagree. From the attitude he displayed, I will bet he is as good as he is going to get.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 30, 2009, 09:58pm
cc6 cc6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amusedofficial View Post
I never make a no-call. Not ever. The runner is not safe until he touches the base, he is not safe because the fielder caught the ball on the bounce, no matter how short that bounce was. If the fielder catches the ball before it strikes the ground, the batsman is out and the appropriate signal is given. If I don't say he's out, then the ball is in play unless and until the runner touches first base, at which point the runner is safe or out and the appropriate signal is given.

it is not the role of the umpire to provide direction to the fielders. We call them out when they are out. We call them safe when they are safe.

We do not issue advisory opinions.
As soon as you know whether it is a catch or no catch, make a signal. Whether a ball is caught or not affects the status of the baserunners.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 30, 2009, 10:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc6 View Post
Ironically, I consider Tim_C to be the only person on here who knows umpiring inside-out. There are a lot of people posing as experts who don't know umpiring very well.
How the hell would you know? Seriously.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 02, 2009, 11:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
Pete,

Interestingly, I had this happen this past Sunday during a HS fall ball game.

Only differences were the ball was hit to F4 and the play started with an R2 & R3.

I honestly couldn't tell whether the F4 "trapped" or "caught" the ball.

My partner had a good look at the play and signalled -NOTHING. I was a bit taken aback. I wondered if he thought this was my call.

As I was debating with myself whether to "poach" the call, the F4 threw to F6 at 2B (both runners had taken off on contact) and my partner then ruled "SAFE!", leading me to conclude he had judged "No Catch".

The F6 then threw home where the catcher tagged out the R3 attempting to score. Action relaxed with the BR at 1B and the R2 on 3B.

Oddly, neither coach came out to discuss the play with either me or my partner.

A half inning later, I gave my partner the "let's talk" signal. I verified that he thought it was his call to make (he thought so too) and suggested that it might be better to come up with a decisive "No Catch" mechanic should a similar play occur in the future. He agreed that would be a good idea.

So, what I did when this happened was - NOTHING. A very uncomfortable couple of seconds from my perspective, and I can't believe we didn't have a bit of a "discussion" about it with a coach.

JM
Nice piece of umpiring JM, don't know if I could have bit my tongue. I guess depends on the impression a new partner would give. Did 'pard seem to have a clue otherwise. If he had sneakers, combo pants, and a strap hat would you have made a call?
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 03, 2009, 11:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C View Post
I guess I am confused:

Why didn't you give a safe sign and voice, "No Catch."

Maybe others here will correct me.
Absolutely the correct mechanic, in my opinion. The runners (and fielders) need to know what happened - especially when it's not obvious.

While we're at it, there are 7 (that I can think of) uses of the "safe sign."

1. The most obvious, the runner is safe because he beat the tag or beat the throw. This is the one with which we are most familiar. It's the signal we make when the BR beats the throws to 1st or when the stealing R1 beats the catcher's throw at 2nd.

2. The batter did not swing. This is the signal the BU gives when asked, "Did he go?"

3. No catch! Used whenever there is any question as to whether the ball was caught while still in flight. This should be used on all shoestring catches, or, when the fielder seemingly catches the ball but it jars loose because of a collision with another fielder or wall/railing.

4. No tag on a swipe. This can occur anywhere! Let's say there is a grounder hit to F4 with R1. After fielding the ball, F4 makes a lunge/swipe toward the passing runner. Did he get him or not? You have to let them know at that very moment because subsequent play depends on the result. You can't just remain silent and signal nothing. Well, you can, but it would be poor technique.

5. A batted ball did not hit the runner. Oftentimes you'll see a runner leap over a sharply hit grounder, or, maybe the ball passed in very close proximity to the runner. There may be some question as to whether the ball hit him or not. If it did not hit him, a very wise signal would be to quickly give the safe signal. That way everybody will know that you were completely aware of what almost happened but it didn't happen. This signal will often preempt some disputes.

6. That's not obstruction/interference. Or, that's nothing. Sometimes a runner and fielder will make contact and it is neither obstruction nor interference. If you determine that it is nothing it would be wise to quickly give the safe signal to indicate, "Yeah, I saw it, too. It's nothing. Keep playing."

7. There is no fan interference. This is very common in MLB parks where fans reach over the railing and try to grab a live ball. A flurry of hands reach out for that ball ringing around in the corner. Did somebody touch it? If not, the umpire oftentimes gives the safe signal to indicate that the ball was not touched and is still live. This can happen during a high school game where it is not uncommon for a bunch of students/fans to congregate along the outfield fence. A ball is hit into the gap and bounces off the wall amidst a bunch of outstretched hands. If nobody touched it - give the safe signal to indicate that 1) you saw it 2) nobody touched and 3) the ball is still live.

Last edited by David Emerling; Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 11:30am.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 03, 2009, 12:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc6 View Post
Ironically, I consider Tim_C to be the only person on here who knows umpiring inside-out. There are a lot of people posing as experts who don't know umpiring very well.
Tim is an extremely knowledgeable umpire, but I'll bet if you ask him he'll tell you himself that he's still learning every time he steps onto a field. He's also able to learn from other members of this forum.

You do know that there are collegiate Div 1 umpires as well as former professional umpires posting here, right?


Tim.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 03, 2009, 09:13pm
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I saw U2 use the "safe" signal in another way the other night on TV. R2 was going back to tag up on a caught fly ball. As the throw was coming back to 2B, it hit R2. R2 slid into 2B to retouch and U2 gave the "safe" signal which I assume was to show that he saw the retouch. There were no defensive players around, so there was no tag play or anything.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 03, 2009, 09:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
I saw U2 use the "safe" signal in another way the other night on TV. R2 was going back to tag up on a caught fly ball. As the throw was coming back to 2B, it hit R2. R2 slid into 2B to retouch and U2 gave the "safe" signal which I assume was to show that he saw the retouch. There were no defensive players around, so there was no tag play or anything.
More likely he was ruling on the possibility of interference with the thrown ball.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 03, 2009, 09:43pm
JJ JJ is offline
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I'm a D1 umpire with 5 Regionals and 10 conference tournaments under my belt, and I'll say without a moment's hesitation I don't know umpiring "inside-out". There are a lot of coaches and player who would agree with me.

JJ
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 03, 2009, 10:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
I saw U2 use the "safe" signal in another way the other night on TV. R2 was going back to tag up on a caught fly ball. As the throw was coming back to 2B, it hit R2. R2 slid into 2B to retouch and U2 gave the "safe" signal which I assume was to show that he saw the retouch. There were no defensive players around, so there was no tag play or anything.
This goes back to the old Kick Ball mechanics. In Kick Ball, you are out if a fielder throws the ball and it hits a runner if he is not in contact with a base.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 03, 2009, 10:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex View Post
This goes back to the old Kick Ball mechanics. In Kick Ball, you are out if a fielder throws the ball and it hits a runner if he is not in contact with a base.
So you're saying that the umpire was signaling safe so nobody would think that hitting the runner with the ball results in an out? Oooooooooooooo-k.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 04, 2009, 07:54am
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
So you're saying that the umpire was signaling safe so nobody would think that hitting the runner with the ball results in an out? Oooooooooooooo-k.
Sorry, I forgot my smiley thing at the end.....Kick Ball mechanics are much more complicated......
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