Little League: Kentucky vs. Texas
 

Kentucky batter attempts to check his swing as he's being hit on the hands by the pitch. Orel Hershiser correctly explains that the hand are not part of the bat, but since the batter was ruled swinging on appeal, it should be called a strike. Way to go, Orel! Hopefully parents everywhere were listening to you!

However, on the field, the homeplate umpire rules the pitch a foul ball, not a dead ball strike.

<sigh>

Orel first said that it should be a foul ball.

I thought it was a top notch "throwing under the bus" move by the PU to explain to the coach that U1 made a call of foul because he doesn't understand much English.

The announcers keep throwing the umpires under the bus by continually emphasizing that they are "volunteers" and pay their own way.

I beg to differ. They point out consistently that EVERYONE is a volunteer. There have been plenty of times they could have thrown the umpires under the bus and they refrain most every time.

-Josh

Orel never recanted that statement. People all over the country now still believe that it was a foul ball and not a dead ball strike. Here they had the perfect captive audience to educate fans everywhere, and they blew their big chance.

The PU did end up blowing the call as well by saying on national TV that it was a foul ball, going along with U1's assessment.

What bothers me about watching the LLWS is that the umpires call time/put the ball in play when they don't need to. IE after walks the umpires tend to put the call back in play. I didn't know that a walk was a dead ball situation ;)

-Josh

I am not sure exactly how that works in Little League. You cannot leave the base until gets to(crosses?) home plate. Could you take second base on a walk if there was a passed ball? Is the ball live? Between batters? Not really, I guess.

Maybe that is why these guys are trained to do what they are doing...seems a little bit odd to me.

They can't leave the base until the pitch reaches the batter. The ball is live, just like regular baseball. The umpire, especially the goof working the California/Mass game, kept giving the count, then putting up a stop sign, then pointing it back in play after nearly every pitch when the batter wasn't quite ready in the box. Ridiculous.

But they're volunteering their time.:rolleyes:

They did that in one of the regionals as well. He would put the ball in play before EVERY pitch in the game. It looked pretty goofy.

Sure you can try for 2B on a walk. To summarize LL rule 7.13, the runner must stay on his base once the pitcher has the ball and is on the pitchers plate and the catcher is in position to catch. As in regular OBR the ball stays live until and unless there is a reason to call time.

This holding up the pitcher/pointing the ball in is a combination of bad habits and a lack of training.

So, after a walk, if the catcher fires the ball back to the pitcher, the BR has to go to first and stay? Is there something in there about there having to be a batter in the box or, just the pitcher and catcher must be ready?

I can imagine some interesting walks with a runner on third situations...

The batter doesn't need to be in the box. Otherwise, you could just have your batter stand back and let the runner run.

I always thought getting the ball back to the pitcher quickly was a good idea at whatever level.

No. You can't use the rule to stop a play in progress and the runner advancing is a play in progress.

LL Rule?
 

LL uses basically the same OBR rules. A LL guy has his first time behind the dish on national TV, and he's finds himself putting the ball into play after every pitch. Now you think the reason is because he has no training or rule knowledge. You suppose he was "coached" that way or in awe of the big time national exposure.

In the Washington/Georgia game today, there was a pitch where the PU didn't call catcher's interference where the batter swung and missed. I thought it was a foul ball because there were two sounds, the bat hitting the ball and the ball hitting F2's glove. The PU got all four infield umpires together to discuss it.

If that's me and I don't have CI, there is no way I'm asking a BU for help. Of all that calls that you should get on your own, that is one of the most obvious.

In regular season play maybe, but in WS play the defense should know what to do..

This is very common in LL, at every level, and every tournament (not in the games I work, where I get my own call as often as possible and ask for help quickly if needed).

Let's get the call right. Let's make sure we're all on the same page. Don't get me wrong--I'm all in favor of that, but it gets taken way overboard IMO.

Last year, at the LL Softball World Series here in Portland, I saw a PU and 1BU talk for a good 30 seconds about a swipe tag before the BU changed his call from safe to out. Could have been solved with a simple "Do you have a tag?" yes or no question, but that's LL...

This year, 3BU calls a runner safe on a banger at third. Defensive manager comes out, has a brief, calm word w/3BU, end of story, right? Well, DM must have convinced the 3BU to get all four infield umpires together. What made him decide to get with 3 other umpires who were all farther away from the play than he was I don't know, other than the DM asked and the BU wanted to keep him happy.

The LL umpire's willingness to have a board meeting on every somewhat controversial play is something I wish would change.

A coach asking you to get help on that play receives "absolutely not" followed by turning and walking away.

I would have said something to that effect as well.

It also appears they don't show replays of close calls more than once or twice, and I have yet to see a replay of a called strike three.

Some of those poor kids have gotten rung up on some real nasty strike three calls this week.

It is not like the MLB World Series where they replay those calls.

I think it's in the MLB rules...they're not supposed to show it at the game anyway. Unless you're referring to the LLWS which the thread it titled...then I guess I don't know.

If anyone saw the Japan vs. Mexico game last night, the word "nasty" for at least two of the third strikes does not do it enough justice. The catcher was set up at least half way in the other batters box, pitcher threw it right where he was suppose to, batter watches the ball go right here which is about 2 ft from the plate, and the PU rings em up and sets em down.

Do not get me wrong I do my fair share of games for that age group in the summer in my hometown to help out with the program and the zone does get big when the game is dragging on, but to call that on ESPN, only the biggest sports station in the world, for kids who are the best in the world in that age group is a little disappointing. The only way a batter would be able to even think about touching those pitches would be with an oar, and thats the truth. No "legal" bat would come close to that unless you step on the plate to swing.

Yeah, even Eric Gregg would have thought those pitches were balls. Pretty brutal umpiring in this LLWS overall. Some good, but some dreadful.

But they're all volunteers!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I guess you can say, You get what you pay for :rolleyes:

I know I'm not perfect, but if I were umpiring on national TV....I sure as hell would try harder. I don't know what some of these guys are looking at. Their ball & strike calls have been consistently inconsistent. I'd expect that out of some of the 16-yr old park district umps....but these guys are supposed to be the best!!:eek: This year they are terrible...just terrible!:mad:

I really feel sorry for the kids.:( They deserve better.

After 31 seasons of umping LL...
 

Trust me, the LLWS umps this year are the best I've ever seen (at the WS). Before you get your flamethrowers out, read on.

This shows you how bad it's been in the past. At least we're not getting ball-strike calls before the rock hits the mitt, as I've seen in the past.

The reason why these guys look so bad is that they are virtually all big cheeses in their local areas. They have developed bad habits over the years (witness the constant "play" business), and there's no one to tell them about the mistakes-- they are the assignors, etc. It's like the emperor's new clothes. Most of these guys have never even done a HS JV game. I see them at LL sectional, state and regional levels all the time.

I think LL is a great place to start, but I didn't hone my skills until I did HS, Legion and college/ex-pro summer ball.

These poor guys can't do the "casual out" at first; every foul ball is a major production; dress up that swinging strike 3--it's fine. It's ingrained. Don't forget that these officials aren't even vetted at the regional level. They get these assignments by recommendation. I am going to try to make it to ER in Bristol, CT next year. Chances are slim and none.

I don't blame this august group for hopping on some of these Smitties. Just remember that they don't think there's a thing wrong with their game.

Ace in CT

Then they should read my Liitle League® World Series thread at the other forum.:cool:

Ace is 100% correct. The umpires we see at the LLWS are at the "top" of their game, they are being rewarded for their dedication to Little League and their local communities. Agree with Little League or not, they reward those in their organization that fit the mold of the Little League Umpire.

Like the old saying goes, " one year experience repeated 20 times", which is the case with SOME LL umpires, but NOT all. Some are dedicated to honing their craft, but like Ace, I agree that moving up to higher caliber ball is the only realy way to hone your skills.

As to what LL wants done in their environment, disagree or not, it's their game, it will be done their way or you won't be doing it at the Regional or WS level. There are times when what we do at the HS level would seem out of place in a Little League sanctioned game, just like what LL wants to see their umpires do would seem foreign to us at the HS level.

I have to disagree. Four or five years ago, LLWS has a great group of umpires, many of whom worked D-1 Ball. As I recall, even this board had a good deal of praise for the umps that year.

This year's cast of fools have even screwed up basic rules and thrown each other under the bus. They are an embarrassment.

Disagree.

Agree.

Steve, just curious what part of my post do you not agree with? I made several statements, some that I suspect would generate some disagreement.

These parts:

I don't think he is 100% correct. He said these are the best umpires at the WS he's ever seen. If this is true, I wonder if he's ever seen the tournament before, because these guys are certainly not the best, with few exceptions. Some were better than others, but only a couple would I classify as "very good." The guy working the plate in the GA/CA game last night was rather brutal, as were U1 and U3. Keystone Cops brutal.

Sure, they are at the "top" of "their" game, which is the scary part. What were they like at the bottom?:eek:

I don't know why using professional mechanics, judgment, timing and game management would be frowned upon in Little League®, or any level of baseball. I've worked Pinto to Semi-Pro, and everything in between, including LL® baseball, and never altered my mechanics or timing to look like some of the Smitties I've witnessed the last couple of weeks in Williamsport.

Steve, thanks for the response, and here are my thoughts.

1) The fact Ace felt these were the best he's seen at the LLWS is just his judgement. I don't know what he's seen in the past. He's entitled to his opinions, as are we. I have seen worse as well, even Mr. Konyar himself has screwed the pooch on occasion.

2) I too have worked Pinto on up, including LL Baseball and I have never altered what I do to mirror anyone. I have also never worked a LL Regional or WS.

Brutal plate umpire
 

The PU in the China-Mexico game had the worst strike zone I have ever seen in a game using instant replay. The third strike call on the left-handed batter when the pitched ball crossed the middle of the right-hand batter's box was typical. No first year umpire in our association would call that pitch a strike. And that was only typical of his HUGE strike zone!

This group of umpires is not up to the standards of the guys from previous years.

It's amazing to me, knowing that you had instant replay on every pitch, why he would have that wide of a zone. I saw just part of that game, and I was shocked at that pitch being called a strike, which he did very consitantly. In other games, I also saw some very obvious '2 plane' misses, in this case, high and wide. There was some obvious chirping coming from the mic'd coaches on those as well.

I haven't watched enough of the games to get a sense for the field work. Why don't the 1b umpires use the 'casual' out signal vs, the full blown hammer? I guess there is no 'casual' when you are on stage. Another pet peeve of mine is the "foul ball" call on screamers back to the fence...come on guys.

According to some of the announcers I have heard, they say the umpires have been instructed to call a very large strike zone for strikes 1 & 2, but to tighten it up for strike 3 and make the pitcher earn it. If this is the case, I dont agree with it because neither the pitcher or the batter ever know where you are going to call something a strike.

One clip I saw was the Curacau catcher framing a pitch. He was set up in the middle of the left handed batters box, caught the ball just off his right shoulder, moved his glove 2' to the middle of the plate and the umpire called it a strike.

I think you mean the Japan-Mexico game. The PU in the game right now in the Championship game is doing pretty good. You must be talking about the game the other day.

My 88 year mother is visiting. She asked what was written on the top patch on the players left sleeve. I told her it said "I wont't cheat." She just looked at me and asked, "Shouldn't that go without saying?" My wife replied, "not anymore."

If they think cheating is something new ask them about the black sox scandal.

Say it ain't so, Shoeless Rich!:D