No men on base. No count on the batter. Pitcher begins his windup.Just about to release pitch when his coach yells, "time!" Pitcher does not throw the pitch. What is the call? Is it a balk and the batter now has a count of "ball one?"

You can only balk if there are men on base.

It cannot be balk without baserunners under all rules.
In OBR, it's nothing with no runners.
Without runners in Fed, it's an illegal pitch, although I've never seen one called for a ball not delivered with nobody on. Umpires I know and have seen enforce as per the OBR rule---it's nothing.

The pitcher has reacted to the defense, not the offense, in stopping his pitch. While the book addresses the issue if the stoppage is caused by the offense, it states nothing regarding the defense.

In most amateur games, CSFP says that if no advantage was gained (a runner was not breaking on the pitch), call time and ignore the happening except to warn that the next time it may be balked. He needs to continue to pitch.

If the runner was breaking on the pitch, enforce the balk.
The action stopped the opportunity of the runner to steal.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Reply
 

If the umpire doesn't grant the pitcher time, he has a certain amount of time before he is required to pitch the ball. In FED rules it is 20 seconds after he has received the ball, I do believe. After those 20 seconds has expired without a pitch . . . the batter is rewarded a ball.

Re: Reply
 

If you're an OBR umpire, do yourself a huge favor and forget the 20-second rule even exists.

I totally disagree with that opinion. If a pitcher stops his delivery with runners on base, and it wasn't caused by the offense, that's a balk, and it always should be a balk. It matters not a wit if a runner was breaking or standing on the base picking his nose, or whether the players are wearing diapers or shaving, or whether his coach yelled, "Time," or "Fire!" (Of course, in Little League Majors and below, it would an illegal pitch by rule)

It's not a CSFP advantage/disadvantage situation. It is as elementary as baseball rules get. Balk!

In LL it's an illegal pitch and ball one. We had some kids figure this out and do this 4 times to intentionally walk batters when the situation called for it. It looked goofy but was legal.

Re: Reply
 

<i> Originally posted by Gold_Spark [/i]

<b> If the umpire doesn't grant the pitcher time, he has a certain amount of time before he is required to pitch the ball. In FED rules it is 20 seconds after he has received the ball, I do believe. After those 20 seconds has expired without a pitch . . . the batter is rewarded a ball. </b>

This kind of rule falls under the category of Nit-Pick'n and I agree with Jim P on this issue whether you do an OBR / NCAA or FED game. Basically forget this rule UNLESS:

F1 is being a real wise a** or F1 is taking an extraordinary amount of time during each pitch in which the game starts to drag on.

Normally we give F1 a warning on this and most F1's oblige.

Pete Booth

Actually, Williamsport has issued a ruling on that and what you described is not legal. If I remember correctly, you call the first one, warn on the second one, and eject on the third one. You never get to a fourth one.

Nit-Pick'n
 

PeteBooth: I don't know how to disagree with you more. I'm a firm believer that every rule should be enforced. And if you are a NFHS Licensed Umpire, I think you should follow their example:

"Umpires have the responsibility to enforce the rules in a consistent manner. Umpires are not authorized to create new rules on the field, nor are they authorized to choose which rules they will or will not enforce. An umpire's personal opinion about the value of a rule is not to have an effect on the enforcement of the rule."

Furthermore, the sole point of my post was the fact that until the Umpire grants "Time", the ball is still live. The umpire could have refused to grant time and urged the pitcher to immediately return to the mound to deliver a pitch. THEN . . . we fall into your situation. If the pitcher then "dilly-dallies" around and doesn't do as asked, the umpire could enforce the 20 second rule.

But fellas . . . if we are playing under a certain set of rules. We just can't leave SOME of them out. Come on.

Re: Nit-Pick'n
 

I don't work FED ball. There's no such thing here.

However, as a long-time OBR umpire, I can tell you that if you try to enforce everything, you'll be one miserable SOB and not many people will like you. That's a fact.

Sorry
 

Just seems contradicting to me. I mean, if you're not going to enforce one rule why not forget about this one too? I just don't like the idea. UNLESS . . . you write out a list of exceptions that say we will not follow these rules pertaining to blah blah blah. That's the only escape I see. But above that . . . I think you should try to enforce EVERY rule. Sorry

Jim - Do you have a reference for that Williamsport ruling? I can't find anything in the rulebook to suggest that this is illegal.

Re: Nit-Pick'n
 

<i> Originally posted by Gold_Spark </i>

<b> PeteBooth: I don't know how to disagree with you more. I'm a firm believer that every rule should be enforced. And if you are a NFHS Licensed Umpire, I think you should follow their example: </b>

All I can say is in my 13 yrs. of umpiring which includes LL (where I started), HS (Varsity level), Legion, Connie Mack, Mickey Mantle, Sandy Kofax, various mens leagues and a collegiate wood bat league I have NEVER enforced this rule and I personally don't know of any umpire who has.

We need to know the history of rules when we are enforcing. The reason the 20 second rule exists is so that the game does not drag on needlessly. Normally all it takes is a warning to F1 and that will do the trick.

If you start calling that kind of rule get ready for a rough game.

Look at the uniform rules. Suppose a team only has 9 players and one of their players does not have the correct hat as his other teammates. Are you not going to allow this player to particpate? First off the AD would probably run you out of town if you didn't.

I am a Licensed NFHS official in the state of NY and if you call that one in NY get ready for a steady diet of modified games and your schedule will all of a sudden get reduced. As mentioned if F1 wants to be a wise a** and do a Mark Fiderich (The Bird) or an Al Robosky (The Mad Hungarian), immitation on every single pitch that's different, but to date that's one rule I have not enforced.

Do not make your life difficult.

Pete Booth

Sorry again . . .
 

All that I can say . . . is that I disagree. And again I'll say that the POINT of my post was to spread light on the fact that TIME isn't granted unless the umpire grants it.

You said this: "We need to know the history of rules when we are enforcing. The reason the 20 second rule exists is so that the game does not drag on needlessly. Normally all it takes is a warning to F1 and that will do the trick."

I said this: "The umpire could have refused to grant time and urged the pitcher to immediately return to the mound to deliver a pitch. THEN . . . we fall into your situation. If the pitcher then "dilly-dallies" around and doesn't do as asked, the umpire could enforce the 20 second rule."

No. I don't expect any umpire to time each and every pitch so to enforce the 20 second rule. And I agree that every rule has it's purpose. Overkill isn't good. Just like a football official could call holding on every play. I understand your logic.

Then again, you just can't FORGET the rule exists. You have to enforce the rule if need be. In my explanation, I believe the enforcement would be needed. That's all.

Geesh, no. All I can do is vouch for its validity. I believe it came from inquiries to Andy Konyar, and then it was passed to umpires at the Regional clinics. That was a couple of seasons ago when the illegal pitch first replaced the balk. I'm sure someone out there will know and clarify exactly where it came from. But I know it's illegal in Williamsport's eyes.

With no men on base, you have nothing!
WIth men on base, you have nothing!

Why?

A coach yelled "time" and the pitcher reacted to that. Warn the coach that if it happens again, he's gone! Runners stay where they are and count stays as is. Warn both managers and follow through with running them if the incident occurs again.

At no time is a person associated with the game allowed to cause the pitcher to commit an illegal act --- PERIOD.

Jim - I'm not doubting your veracity. Heck, if anyone would know, you would. I just need some backup when I get challenged on it and its not in the rulebook.

Re: Reply
 

Yes, but that's not going to apply if the delay isn't his fault (those are my words, not a literal reading fo the rule / cases)

See 6.2.2E cmt and 7.3.1E cmt

So, e-mail Williamsport. You can do that, you know.

And that rule can be found . . . where?

Nah . . .
 

ozzy6900: First of all, I agree that the coach should ultimatly be warned. However, if there are men on base. This act IS a balk.

Now, if the OFFENSE would have done something to cause the balk, that would be interference on the offense. (IE: The batter stepping out of the box RIGHT before the pitch).

But your "At no time is a person associated with the game allowed to cause the pitcher to commit an illegal act --- PERIOD" statement is way off base. There are rules concerning this situation all throughout the rule book and case book. Of the NFHS that is.

bob jenkins: The rule won't apply unless it's the fault of the offense that he stopped his pitch. In this case, the pitcher would be expected to continue his delivery even though his coach yelled "Time".

Bottom line is . . . if you are a coach and yer team is on defense. Don't randomly yell "Time". Especially if yer pitcher is in his delivery. STUPID coaching.

Re: Nah . . .
 

The situation is handled under the OBR. If the batter steps out of the box, and that action causes the pitcher to stop his delivery, then it is a do-over - both players start over from scratch since they both broke the rules.

But when the defensive coach causes his pitcher to stop his delivery, only <u>one</u> side has broken a rule. With runners on base, that rule is a balk.

My fault Jim
 

The FED rules that if the umpire feels the batters movement was made to cause the pitcher to balk, THEN the batter is at fault for offensive interference.

And about the defense. Yes. Yelling "time" would be the same as yelling "don't pitch".