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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 11:05am
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Yeah, game management...where we make the big bucks!
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 11:12am
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A runner not "immediately" returning to 1st after attaining 1st is an appealable play (7.10c). If the BR is obviously heading toward his dugout, I will recognize the tag and bang him out. Similar situation where BR passes 1st and stops to remove all of his batting gear. If he or the base is tagged, he is out on appeal.

Quote:
7.08j Any runner is out when ..... He fails to return at once to first base after overrunning or oversliding that base. If he attempts to run to second he is out when tagged. If, after overrunning or oversliding first base he starts toward the dugout, or toward his position, and fails to return to first base at once, he is out, on appeal, when he or the base is tagged;

7.08a2 PLAY. Runner believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be declared out for abandoning the bases.

Last edited by UmpTTS43; Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:18am.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 11:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 View Post
Similar situation where BR passes 1st and stops to remove all of his batting gear. If he or the base is tagged, he is out on appeal.
Ouch...bet that makes for a nice sh*tstorm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 11:42am
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Originally Posted by LMan View Post
Ouch...bet that makes for a nice sh*tstorm.
I'm sure it would be. I have never called it, but it is something in my toolbox that I have at my disposal should I ever "deem" it necessary to call it.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 12:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 View Post
A runner not "immediately" returning to 1st after attaining 1st is an appealable play (7.10c). If the BR is obviously heading toward his dugout, I will recognize the tag and bang him out.
What tag? An out for abandonment does not require a tag. In the OP, if F3 tags the runner, he's not far enough away to have abandoned. If that tips him off to return to 1B, we play on.

A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 12:40pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.
Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 12:50pm
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?
Interesting this would come up, I just read about it yesterday...J/R says something about the runner being able to be tagged out if he does so in front of the base.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 01:18pm
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?
Hm. That's at least twice we've agreed in the last 7 days. Is it 2012?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 01:38pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Hm. That's at least twice we've agreed in the last 7 days. Is it 2012?
If it is, armaggedon out of here now!!!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 06:09pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
What tag? An out for abandonment does not require a tag. In the OP, if F3 tags the runner, he's not far enough away to have abandoned. If that tips him off to return to 1B, we play on.

A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.
If the BR is heading towards the dugout, he is not in the act of "immediately" returning to first base. If tagged, as in the original OP, he is out on appeal. In order to get the out for abandonment, you have to judge that he has progressed a "reasonable distance" away from the bag. It is possible that you don't think that the BR has progressed a "reasonable distance" in order to get the out for abandonment, but you can still get the appealable out for not "immediately" returning to first base. This appealable infraction is for first base only, where abandonment can happen at any base. From the original OP, we can have two different out calls for two different rules violations.

As far as a player removing his equipment off of the base ...

.... let's say that the BR beats out a banger at first and stops 15 ft. behind the base. Instead of returning to first and then ridding himself of his gear, the BR stays at his stopped spot and "dis-equipments." (takes off his elbow and ankle protection) While this is happening, the defense now appeals by either tagging the BR or first base. How can you not uphold the appeal? The defense recognized that the BR did not fullfill his base running responsibilities. By ignoring this appropriate appeal, you are disregarding a rule, which we are there to enforce, and will create an even larger "sh*tstorm."

I have never had to rule on this, but given the correct circumstances, I would uphold the appeal and deal with whatever objection that would result due to my ruling. Correctly upholding this appropriate appeal is no different than upholding any other appealable offence, such as a missed base or leaving too soon on a caught fly ball and should not be considered as being an OOO.

I agree with the post that said that upholding the appeal based on the BR taking his gear off while returning to first would be inappropriate. That would be different from the example I described above.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 06:44pm
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Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 View Post
.... let's say that the BR beats out a banger at first and stops 15 ft. behind the base. Instead of returning to first and then ridding himself of his gear, the BR stays at his stopped spot and "dis-equipments." (takes off his elbow and ankle protection) While this is happening, the defense now appeals by either tagging the BR or first base. How can you not uphold the appeal? The defense recognized that the BR did not fullfill his base running responsibilities. By ignoring this appropriate appeal, you are disregarding a rule, which we are there to enforce, and will create an even larger "sh*tstorm."

I have never had to rule on this, but given the correct circumstances, I would uphold the appeal and deal with whatever objection that would result due to my ruling. Correctly upholding this appropriate appeal is no different than upholding any other appealable offence, such as a missed base or leaving too soon on a caught fly ball and should not be considered as being an OOO.
It is common protocol for the batter runner to rid himself of his equipment without having to request Time to do it after overrunning first base. It is different at the other bases, because he isn't allowed to overrun them to start with, so he has to request and be granted Time in order to step off the base and remove his gear, hand them to the bat boy, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 View Post
I agree with the post that said that upholding the appeal based on the BR taking his gear off while returning to first would be inappropriate. That would be different from the example I described above.
This statement contradicts what you just said. The example above is he stops 15 ft. past the base, and in this one he is walking back to the base. They are exactly the same thing. At some place, he is going to stop, unstrap the leg guard or elbow guard, and then return to the base. Who care if it's down the line or near the base, as long as he then returns immediately to the base?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 08:28pm
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
It is common protocol for the batter runner to rid himself of his equipment without having to request Time to do it after overrunning first base. It is different at the other bases, because he isn't allowed to overrun them to start with, so he has to request and be granted Time in order to step off the base and remove his gear, hand them to the bat boy, etc.
I see no reason why a player would have to step off of a base to remove any protective equipment. The main reason "time" is given is so that someone can come get the gear from the player versus the player simply handing it to the first base coach.


Quote:
This statement contradicts what you just said. The example above is he stops 15 ft. past the base, and in this one he is walking back to the base. They are exactly the same thing. At some place, he is going to stop, unstrap the leg guard or elbow guard, and then return to the base. Who care if it's down the line or near the base, as long as he then returns immediately to the base?
I apologize if I did not fully explain my situation clearly enough. In my opinion, there is a distinct differerence between standing beyond first base, taking unecessary time to remove all of the gear and then walking back towards first base versus walking towards first while removing the gear including stopping for a brief moment to release his ankle protection. In the first example, he is not returning "immediately" whereas in the second example he is. I am of the opinion that there is sufficient "relaxed" action to remove the gear once he goes back to first base.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 09:30pm
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Reinstatement

A runner is allowed to overrun 1B 1-way. If he returns to the HP side of 1B, he subject to being tagged out. Ball is live. Abandonment applies when he leaves the baseline {his basepath}, so the call may be delayed until he progresses a reasonable distance away from 1B and does not make an effort to return to base immediately, moving towards a defensive position or the dugout.

When in doubt, always call em out!
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Last edited by SAump; Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:44pm.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 29, 2009, 09:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?
Anything other than his pants and jockstrap, that is...
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 30, 2009, 11:49am
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Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 View Post
I'm sure it would be. I have never called it, but it is something in my toolbox that I have at my disposal should I ever "deem" it necessary to call it.
YGBSM.

Better leave that 'tool' in your box...
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